Finance or Engineering at Uni - Help my son choose

[blueshoes]

Ds is in Y12 and doing Maths, Physics and Economics A level. He thinks he can get AAB (solid chance) or AAA* (aspirational, cough) if he finally knuckles down.

He finds Economics naturally easy. His fave subjects at GCSE are Physics and Maths but he is finding it hard work at A level and not getting the grades.

He is starting to think about his course and uni and veers between Finance and Engineering but does not know where to start. Not Oxbridge, he is not that material so probably more Russell Group. He definitely wants the university experience and not an apprenticeship.

Neither dh nor I are Science-y nor Finance-y, so not much use.

Any thoughts at all about Finance or Engineering as a career in terms of future prospects? Which uni or course is the best for either? Any other thing he could be doing that is all the rage?

Economist roles are often based in London, one in banking would generally be based at the headquarters - Canary Wharf or the City normally and then you would be in office for writing reports, press releases, internal meetings and then out for events, dinners etc - these can be round the country and you are put up in hotels and typically you give a speech, drinks / lunch after then evening drinks / dinner. Depends on role on a role with political elements there will be events at House of Commons like drinks etc and garden parties in the summer.

It may be worth checking how much there is taught compared to independent with the courses - when I did it engineering had about double the amount taught / in lectures than economics which had more independent learning where you were given a reading list and write an essay in your own time. This does give more flexibility on hours which can work with partying but does require some self-discipline to actually do it. So it will suit my DD very well, who also likes to party and Vinted but very self-motivated, my DS it would not get done.

Huge shortage of engineers, company husband works at have to recruit extensively from abroad as they can't get suitably qualified UK engineers. Finance it is possible to work abroad (and academia with a PhD) but that can be challenging with a family. A lot in finance where from abroad and fluent in multiple languages where I worked though there are some roles abroad in English and also quite a few finance roles involve international travel though this sounds very glamorous - flying to New York first class for a meeting then back but the people I knew who did it often hated it - flying overnight then in office for the day in UK on return. Economist roles abroad generally require a PhD and can often ask for languages.

The location of engineering jobs can vary quite a lot and can vary from places - know an engineer who has been based in both a glamorous car makers and a much less glamorous sewerage works but you know in advance where you will be based.

Sorry, but disagree with this totally.

Students have been "partying" since the origin of universities.

Yes, there will always be a small number who party to the extreme and check-out of their academic obligations.

However, there will be an even larger number who enjoy very active social lives whilst at university, who achieve good degrees and go on to have successful lives, careers etc.

Thanks for your perspective. It gives ds hope to do civil engineering. He likes doing mechanics in Physics, so will look into that as well. He definitely needs to follow up with a deeper dive into the different types of engineering.

Ds could do with the structure of a taught course. His spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Thanks for pointing out that he has choice even amongst Economics courses if his maths is not that strong.

Good to know about the shortage of engineers. I was also attracted to engineering when I was at ds' age. It is a real life skill, very handy [pun].

Ds would like travel. He is not attracted to academia, so not one for PHD. So true about many people in finance having multiple languages which is fantastic for the international nature of some of the roles.

On international travel, I'd hate to do a red eye to NYC, even on first class (no one is offering though). It is fine when you are young and allowed to some leisure time in the location but no fun if it is jump off a plane for meetings and then back again.

Good point about engineers having to move to where the projects are. HS2 is UK but what if he moved to the middle east or something? It would also be difficult for a family to move around and have an expat lifestyle. He wants a wife who works.

I am of course way overthinking this, oops.

A lot of food for thought here.

Ds has not mentioned a gap year mainly because his friends are generally not taking gap years at this stage. Ds would not want to fall behind his friends.

Is ds going to party his head off at uni? Currently he has a mix of social and academics because he is not allowed to fall behind in his grades. However he wants to live out for uni and without my influence nagging who knows.

I am hoping the minority who overparty perhaps did not have the opportunity when living at home and so when let loose with forbidden fruit, don't know where to stop. Or perhaps they were not meant to go to uni in the first place.

I have to let go on the partying point and hope that ds is sensible. There is the ever present danger of drugs and temptation of alcohol even now. I can only hope that having been exposed to all these whilst out partying now and still living at home would innoculate him to some extent.

DS goes to where the job is but not necessarily living there - just there for the duration -the case with lots of work nowadays.

Yes you can move around with work. I have friends who worked in the Middle East (wouldn’t be for me!).

My husband and I are both engineers. We have a family and live in London. There is always work in London, we have never had to work away and we have both worked for the same company we started with after graduating.

We are able to do nursery pick ups and drop offs, work has been very flexible, especially understanding with nursery sickness! That hasn’t been the case with friends who work in banking and finance.

@Revelatio can I ask which area of engineering you are in? Specifically, which engineering is more likely to allow him to live in London. PS that is not him asking but me wanting him close by 😆

Ds is doing a weeklong internship at Mott MacDonald in their London offices.

My DD is 24 and a civil engineer. She did maths, physics and chemistry at A level and got A, A, B (IIRC) and went to Bath, where she did an integrated Masters resulting in MEng (four years). She was a QUEST scholar through the Institute of Civil Engineers https://www.ice.org.uk/careers-learning/develop-your-career/quest/quest-undergraduate-scholarship and was paid £2000 in December in each year of study, a further £2000 when she joined her sponsor company after graduating, and had 8 weeks paid work each summer except in covid. She's had three payrises in a year and a half, has a company car, subsistence/rent allowance when away from home, ongoing mentor support throughout her studies and multiple grad events since. If you want variety, don't mind being cold and wet at times, don't want glamour, and want to progress, she would recommend it. She is now working towards achieving her chartership.

And - she is working in London, which is where she was born and grew up! Her first project was in the south west but she's now on a TfL project.

Specifically, which engineering is more likely to allow him to live in London.

Maybe electronics- that's my DDs field, she's in the Cambridge area. But might not be as appealing/appropriate to your DS as some of the other types.

Re partying. These people are adults. It’s really hard but important to let go, let them make their own mistakes.

My DS parties very hard and scrapes by academically with exactly the minimum he has to do to get to where he wants to, be it progression to the next year, semester abroad etc. He’s aware of it and managing it. Apparently 😂

I wouldn’t sweat it too much - your DS sounds like he has his head screwed on. Mine knows it’s a very big debt for a worthless bit of paper if he buggers it up.

Uni can be such a wonderful time in a YPs life, and they should be allowed to enjoy it! I feel this really keenly with my DS as he had some pretty shit teen years leading up to it.

I wouldn't expect much/any travel in Finance. Post Covid attitudes have changed (and budgets slashed) and most work can be done over Teams unless you're very senior. I used to travel a lot in my Finance role (note: Economics and languages degree) but not anymore. I'm currently working with 44 countries for something very high profile & high pressure and almost all of it is done from my desk at home, with occasional forays into the London office. In the 'old days' I would have been jetting around the world but those days are over.

Engineering is different, certainly civil engineering anyway. Some of my closest friends are civil engineers and those who wanted to work overseas have done 6 months - 6 years (!) in Canada, Denmark and Spain. One is currently commuting weekly to Denmark.

You must be so proud of your dd. She sounds like she is doing great.

Ds did mention civil engineering. The QUEST scholarship is most interesting. Good to see the list of engineering companies on there. I could not even name one so that is a good starting point as research fodder.

Can I ask, do you know what the starting salary of a civil engineer is in the range of?

bloody 'eck, high profile high pressure project with 44 countries all done remotely. Sounds intense. Times are really changed. That is a good thing for the environment. Are you able to say which area of Finance you are in?

Will make the point to ds that engineering involves more travel.

Your ds would have invented 'Work Smarter Not Harder' 😆

I so agree about enjoying your uni days. Dcs would be very privileged to be able to party. Many have to work part time to fund their living costs. And it IS a lot of debt to take on if they don't come out with useful degree. Good for them to see all of that.

All the best to your DS. Hope he continues to have a blast.

I’d say that average engineering grad programme salaries are generally around the £25k - £32k level, depending on discipline and location.

Have a look on gradcracker.com to get some ideas.

Also bear in mind that some engineering disciplines require Chartered Engineer status to get into senior tech roles - a masters degree is required (so look at the MEng uni courses).

My son works in finance, he is a quantitative analyst with a maths degree. He graduated last year. He did physics, maths and economics A Levels.

I’d say that average engineering grad programme salaries are generally around the £25k - £32k level, depending on discipline and location.

@SabrinaThwaite that is quite a disparity from starting Finance salaries, I think, along with the need for a MEng.

@blueshoes
We are both Civil Engineers (although I moved to Architecture), but it’s the same for my friends who are structural, mechanical, and electrical engineers (you need all them to build a building!). Chemical Engineering is more likely to be based out of London as it tends to be more factory based (I have some friends who do this and definitely benefit from good salaries but cheaper and bigger houses).

The salary on average for a civil engineer would not be as high as some finance roles. I was going to go into finance, but I found it very dull and couldn’t imagine doing it forever. Engineering solves problems everyday and when I walk around London I am so proud to see all the buildings I have helped build.

Also remember that not everyone in finance is well paid, it depends how senior you are, same with engineering. You spend so much of your life in work, you really need to enjoy it as best you can!!

@blueshoes

A lot of civil engineering companies have regional offices - I’ve been based in Devon, Worcester, North Yorkshire, Scotland and Oxfordshire, I’ve never been based in London. I’ve travelled a reasonable amount across the UK and done a bit of overseas work too.

My DS is a chemical engineer (did the 4 year MEng) and is on about £35k plus benefits after 2 years in a regional lab based role. Looking to move on but the next step up is competitive in the field he wants to get into (would involve lots of overseas travel).

I don’t think you typically go into engineering to earn shed loads of money, it’s more about an interesting career that can develop in lots of different ways. As @Revelatio says, it’s quite satisfying to see buildings, roads, bridges etc that you’ve worked on.

In comparison, friend’s DC went straight into management consulting at a much higher salary but it often involves 14 hour days and seems to involve a lot of data analysis / number crunching.

Engineering, for sure.

DH & I both studied Chemical Engineering (where we met). DS1 studied Electrical and Electronic Engineering, and two of my DDs studied Economics. DS and DD2 and now working in their respective fields.

We studied 40 years ago, so things have probably changed a lot. Once of the things that we were told was that Engineering was for scientists who could write. Therefore a question for you to ask is what is DS's literacy like?

Engineering is typically a four year course in England, so that might impact any decision, whereas Economics is typically three years (add an extra year for both in Scotland).

With Economics, you can pretty much build your own degree with a lot of optional modules, after the compulsory early ones (depending on the institution). With Engineering, the course is more rigid, with labs added on to lectures and tutorials.

Obviously, I am generalising massively here. What's important is for your DS to trawl through university website to look at course structures. He could also do a Headstart Summer Course. He should also do some holiday reading for Economics. I think university is very different from school.

Many have to work part time to fund their living costs

Engineering is a very high contact hours subject. There's no way my DD could have worked during termtime or the Xmas and Easter vacations. But she got decently paid summer internships, and and managed a decent balance of work, rest and play.

DD started Sept 22 on a few pounds short of 30k, plus company car.