Reapplying?

[AllTheFunOfTheHair]

DD is waiting to hear from her final choice for STEM subject following 4 rejections (including after interview from Imperial and Oxford)

She always knew it was a competitive subject, but with strong academics (10X9 at GCSE and predicted 4 Astar at A-level) plus good PS etc it wasn’t wildly unrealistic.

Her school send vvv few to Oxbridge and weren’t really able to help much with interview prep - she openly says she messed her (online) interview up. For imperial, we had a family bereavement in the morning and she was coming down with what turned out to be Covid so it wasn’t great.

The final choice was her least favourite and she’s really not sure she wants to go there even if offered.

We’re trying now to get our heads round what applying with grades in hand looks like and would hugely appreciate any experience or insight from anyone who knows more about this than we do!

• is it a waste of a “space” trying again for Oxbridge and Imperial? Does the bar go up even higher second time around?
• what will admissions be looking for in terms of “extra” to show that the applicant isn’t just reheating their previous personal statement? (We know the format is changing for 2024). Should DD be trying to do another project/get work experience/start a new course over the summer hols once A-Levels are finished, beating in mind how early the Oxbridge deadline is?
• Any other help?! My DD has really low self confidence and this has knocked her so hard. We know it’s really down to the competition out there and a hefty dose of (bad) luck but it’s tough to see her hopes and dreams so badly crushed.

Thanks

If she did want to use UCAS Extra this year, Loughborough and Lancaster are top ten unis that are usually a little less competitive. Could also look at York or Exeter. Worth giving each of them a call beforehand.

Hi, OP -

I am so sorry this happened to your DD.

The bereavement may well have made a difference to her interview. But certain STEM subjects gave become crazily competitive so it is difficult to know.

As a former Russell Gp STEM admissions tutor, in the tier just below COWI, I argued with some success in favour of admitting students who had taken a gap year and kept up their Maths. But it was an uphill battle and only a minority of STEM admissions tutors share my view.

However almost all of us like to help - the applicants directly, that is, rather than their DPs, no matter how well intentioned. (Of course loving parents can help in the background). I think it might be worth DD contacting the admissions teams at the other two schools to ask whether keeping up her Maths (with details) whilst spending her gap year doing X (any chance of employment at the firm that thinks highly of her?) would make a post qualification application worthwhile?

Comprehensives do not predict 4 A stars lightly and I am really surprised by the rejections. However other types of schools routinely over predict and the reality of 3 or 4 achieved A stars has a certain impact that predictions lack.

Having said this, Southampton is an excellent university. If DD lacks confidence she should think carefully about where she will best thrive. This is a complex question and the most important one IMO. Best wishes to her.

Yes the PS is changing format. It will be more structured and easier to write.

L’boro is renowned for its Teaching and Learning programme and Lancaster is one of the hidden gems of the RG+ (together with Glasgow IMO). Great suggestions from @Skule If I have guessed the discipline I also like York, don’t know much about Exeter.

I’d go to Southampton.

Oxbridge have a terrible hold over people. I’d take control of the situation and get on with my life at Southampton - which will be lovely and enjoyable.

Thanks everyone (again) and thanks especiallly for your insight @poetryandwine , really helpful.

We’ve been quietly supportive in the background rather than directive (hence the slightly sub-optimal choices) but really keen to gently encourage her to act now from an informed and fact-based position. Interesting to hear that reaching out to admissions to discuss their view of reapplication would be acceptable as it was something DD herself had floated.

it’s absolutely not Oxbridge (or Imperial) or bust, and the reservations re Southampton are purely that she has gone there several times a year through her life so not really the adventure that somewhere new would be (yes, it was a silly decision to apply there, but sometimes 17yo know best…) And at the moment, there’s nothing to accept - she may well end up empty handed.

UCAS Extra wasn’t something we’d fully appreciated so will look properly into that and what’s out there.

School have done their best but obviously have v limited resources and a wide range of students to support, including many with no family background of higher ed. I don’t criticise them at all. Imperial complimented her on her PS (which may well be standard interview spiel!) so again lots to think about in terms of whether she just hasn’t landed it right for the other unis.

I think the Oxford interview just went badly - she was very nervous and it just didn’t click. She reflected a lot and felt much more comfortable for Imperial, but then had the bad news on the morning of the interview and was also really under the weather. Just very bad luck. Absolutely take the point that she needs to be very honest with herself about whether the rigour and pressure of the very top tier is the right fit for her, it’s hard to gauge really against the very small pool she’s swam in to date.

My heart goes out to her. It’s a situation that you could think unthinkable with her grades. Whilst not stem, my dd applied with grades in hand this year due to a very late decision to change uni subject, which gave about 15 days to put together a PS. I wouldn’t worry about feeling the need to offer anything new, there’s barely any time to do anything extra between results and reapplying if going for early application.

I know three people who have got into Oxbridge at the second or third attempt, though none of them applied for STEM subjects.

1. didn't get in to Oxford first time round. Reapplied the next year and got in.

2. didn't get into Oxford first or second time. Swapped subject the following year and got in.

3. didn't get into Oxford at first attempt. Applied to Cambridge the following year (last year) and got in.

I think it's definitely worth applying again with grades in hand (obviously assuming they are good enough which it sounds like she definitely will be).

What were the other 2 universities that rejected her ?

My DS got rejected by Oxford for a STEM maths related subject but has been accepted by everywhere else as have his FM class mates. None have heard back yet from Imperial though.

My DS put KCL down as his easiest to get into uni

They all go to state school 6th form

I'm wondering if universities are taking in more international students to make up for the Covid years to make up the shortfall

Getting rid of grants and having to take on more international students is just another way of preventing state school DC getting into uni as easily.

That's my cynical take

Your DD seems very very unlucky with those excellent GCSE grades and predicted grades

I really do feel for her

I can't imagine what the 2 other universities could have been to also reject her

many schools view it as a two year process so maybe tell her that? Get the a levels done, enjoy the rest of sixth form and decide on results day.

its not even a ‘year’ out is it - Oxford application is autumn, interviews and results start coming in and it will fly by

can she do maths course in that time to keep her maths up?

I wonder if it is the PS hold your DD off the offer from other two universities. With such high MAT and the predicted A level, it is very unlucky for her. IC each year admitted less than 10 UK applicants for the JMC course ( the only maths related course needs STEP), requirements of A level is higher than Oxford. PS written for JMC course will be disadvantaged for other top university CS (if it is) course without strong CS ECs (like OUCC, BIO). Avoid JMC and only concentrate CS should help reapply next year.

If the course is Joint Maths and Computer Science, don't spend time fretting over whether the application wasn't good enough etc. It's just an incredibly competitive course to apply for. I know of an excellent 4A*s candidate this year who was rejected from Oxford, Imperial, UCL and Edinburgh.

Those big city universities also tend to attract a lot of international students, so fewer places for domestic applicants compared to some of the universities in smaller towns and cities.

It can be worth reapplying, her grades are similar to those accepted to Oxbridge etc and I don't think the bar is higher second time round and she will now have experience of first time around.

Our school (state) warned applicants for computer science, economics and medicine that they have had this happen a number of time to straight 9, straight A star students getting no offers at all when they have selected 5 very competitive courses. They said it in no way reflects the quality of the applicant, it just happens as the courses are so competitive and they recommended having 3 options which aren't super competitive.

A year out can be a good thing, giving work and life experience and the chance to earn money. Now I would focus on getting the grades.

My DD was applying for economics and did some research into this. Oxford publish the criteria they use to select and past admissions reports by subject (Merton have them on their site) show who offers go to. In Economics half of the criteria is grades at GCSEs (or maybe predicted A levels too), quantity of 8s and 9s and 8s and 9s are counted the same, this is adjusted if the school has a negative value add where they sat their GCSEs (this applies to DD, she had 10, same as your DD and 10 is good for offers). Predicted grades are also looked at and there was a freedom of info request we saw that showed people with 4 A stars who get an interview 1 in 2 get offers, people with 3 A stars 1 in 4 get an offer. So these are in all her favour. The MAT is low though for an offer I suspect and if your DD could get higher on the entry tests that might be enough to secure a place next year. Then the last category is interview scores but if you have high scores in those sections its more not having a really bad interview than appearing a genius in an interview. Its also about seeing how you learn and that you are teachable not the amount you know so being able to see you made an error reflect and take that into account is a good thing but a first time interviewee may panic and feel stupid that they got something wrong or missed something. Also does she come across as enthusiastic for her subject (if not think about what different courses might be better), that matters a lot at interview for Oxbridge. And being able to mix with people from state / private / international helps. The LSE for Economics its all about the personal statement and this has puzzled me seeing candidates with 4 A stars rejected and I looked a video up and apparently this means a lifetime commitment to maths, showing you love it and having achieved in it. Bristol seems to offer to 4 A star first, then 3 A star. Bath offered instantly. Its very strange that similar courses can have very different selection criteria but its worth researching direct sources.

It may also be worth talking to admissions departments. I would not take a university she feels no enthusiasm for just because its the only offer, if she hadn't visited I would have said visit but that doesn't appear to be the issue. I would explore if there's any way of getting alternative offers this year via extra or clearing and also consider how a year out could look. One other issue can be if you have say opted for a joint course at Oxford / Imperial and tailored PS to there and done single elsewhere other unis on competitive courses can reject for that. So my DD did not mention management anywhere on her PS. You can also get stats online on how often unis offer.

A really interesting post, @Penguinsa

Bristol also look at GCSEs don’t they? Many courses say 20% weighting there.

Thanks Poetry

Yes I think each course at Bristol has its own guide but the Economics ones its says GCSE weight 20%, A level weight 80%. Some places are much more weighted to GCSEs or another criteria so its worth going through in detail if you have a DC much stronger in one area than another. Contextual offer criteria also varies a lot between universities. My DD gets contextual for GCSEs at Oxford, contextual overall at Bath but nothing at Bristol or LSE.

@Penguinsa Bristol has a huge list of schools which generate contextual offers. Most people think it’s pretty generous. Certainly I have been surprised at the schools included. It appears less targeted than some schemes I think but it’s fair to say they are trying hard.

I'm sorry your DD is having a miserable time when she has done so well.
It's hard to see that in fact most people get rejected by O and I. And all other good unis will have people eith excellent grades.

I really hope one of the others offer. The wait is hard.

I just wanted to say that I might encourage her to go away with her friends as planned even if she is going to reapply. Giving up the summer trip to work on a PS that was good enough to get her interviews might make another rejection harder?

Sorry that should say hope Southampton offers

Were the other two unis Warwick and Bath? I'm so sorry for your DD. She sounds v similar to mine (although mine doesn't have quite so good GCSEs ), who is a year behind yours and is set on applying for Maths. I can't believe your DD has had 4 rejections when she's clearly such a strong candidate.

@LighthouseCat But the DC who get the places are also strong candidates. It’s not as if strong candidates are rejected in favour of weak ones. Imperial takes a high percentage of overseas candidates so competition is fierce on a global scale. Ditto Oxbridge. We have so many brilliant people in many other unis it’s perfectly possible to launch a career from them.

@TizerorFizz yep, I know. You're right.

I'm trying to get my DD to consider a wider range of unis but she won't have it (and I sort of don't blame her). When you've been top for a long time (albeit in a small pond) it's hard to realise that it's no guarantee of getting into a top uni.

@LighthouseCat Well it depends on subject! Some have way better odds than others as this thread shows. MFL has 33% get in but highly competitive subjects can be as low as 7% at Oxford.

I think DD needs some facts in front of her. Absolutely apply to two top drawer unis. Do your best but be prepared for not getting in. Being top in a small pool guarantees nothing. However she could be successful so have a go. The big lesson is choosing wisely for your other three choices. Where would she thrive and be prepared to go? Very many unis have “Oxbridge rejects” now and many unis are perfectly capable of educating dc brilliantly.

What I would also say is that university attended isn’t everything. Work experience, working effectively and quickly matter, being personable and networking pays dividends. Being with like minded people also helps. Finding out how to access the career you want and getting the cv up to scratch matter. A student can do that at any (very good) uni. A degree is a passport but it’s not guaranteeing anything in the country you arrive at. (If that makes sense).

It is really unlucky not to get one of her offers when she has a strong application. Many might only get a couple if they are applying for one of the insanely competitive courses, but most very strong applicants will get one of them - so I hope the last one comes through for her. I can see why this has knocked her confidence but hopefully the last one will offer and give her a bit of a boost.

I think I’d say to seriously consider that last place if the offer does come, or to see what can be gained via UCAS Extra. There are lots of other good courses out there and she could well get an offer giving her options - she can always reject come results day.

Re-applying is stressful, especially if you are lacking in confidence. Unless you actually achieve the 3 A stars, you apply from a weaker position than with the predicted grades, plus the year out with maths can be a barrier. I think it can be the right thing for some candidates. Those who have received the Oxford feedback which details their admissions tests results, interview scores etc and can see exactly where their weaknesses lie and have a plan to address and boost them, and have conscience in their abilities to do this, can go onto get a place. I suspect most of those have a level of confidence and know they were near misses, but have some others offers in hand which boosted their confidence. They know their application led to other offers so they feel a re-application will result in those being forthcoming again.

A re-application to UCAS might be needed is your DD doesn’t get any offers or offers she’s happy with via UCAS Extra. However, I’d consider carefully whether it’s good to do Oxford again, especially from a position of a lack of confidence. The GCSEs and A Levels help you get to interview if the MAT is strong enough, but the MAT test score (most offered are scoring extremely high) and interview are what tips you into offers or not.

It’s probably too early to decide yet. That final place might come through with an offer. If not Extra might yield a decent offer. It sounds like if either of these comes off, taking the offer and going might be better. If nothing emerges or nothing suitable, you can wait for A Levels and look at Clearing, although I know little exists for these kind of courses, and dependent on the actual grades and how she’s feeling re-apply, possibly with a broader range of options next time. But I really hope the last offer comes in to give her a boost and help her move on.

@TizerorFizz thank you. Good advice there. Much appreciated.