Reapplying?

[AllTheFunOfTheHair]

DD is waiting to hear from her final choice for STEM subject following 4 rejections (including after interview from Imperial and Oxford)

She always knew it was a competitive subject, but with strong academics (10X9 at GCSE and predicted 4 Astar at A-level) plus good PS etc it wasn’t wildly unrealistic.

Her school send vvv few to Oxbridge and weren’t really able to help much with interview prep - she openly says she messed her (online) interview up. For imperial, we had a family bereavement in the morning and she was coming down with what turned out to be Covid so it wasn’t great.

The final choice was her least favourite and she’s really not sure she wants to go there even if offered.

We’re trying now to get our heads round what applying with grades in hand looks like and would hugely appreciate any experience or insight from anyone who knows more about this than we do!

• is it a waste of a “space” trying again for Oxbridge and Imperial? Does the bar go up even higher second time around?
• what will admissions be looking for in terms of “extra” to show that the applicant isn’t just reheating their previous personal statement? (We know the format is changing for 2024). Should DD be trying to do another project/get work experience/start a new course over the summer hols once A-Levels are finished, beating in mind how early the Oxbridge deadline is?
• Any other help?! My DD has really low self confidence and this has knocked her so hard. We know it’s really down to the competition out there and a hefty dose of (bad) luck but it’s tough to see her hopes and dreams so badly crushed.

Thanks

I have nothing constructive to say but am sure others will. Sounds like just very bad luck- of course it is very competitive but your DD is of course very able. Just wanted to say chin up and something good will come through for her for sure. I would also keep the last option in consideration with open mind and heart. Wishing her all the best. She will surely do very well wherever she lands.

So sorry to hear this. What is the course, as it can matter?

Thanks @faithforgottenland thats a lovely message. We’re treading a bit of a fine line between being cautiously positive about it while being conscious it might also fall through. I’m not sure it’s a great fit for her anyway but declining if offered is obviously a risk too.
This bit of parenting is so hard!

Thanks @Revengeofthepangolins

I am being deliberately coy as it’s not “my”
story if that makes sense, but it’s a maths-related course where I know there is concern if applicants have taken a pause in studying

Oxbridge and Imperial are high risk. Where are other two rejections? If she’s not confident, how will this improve in a year? It’s often needed in an interview. I might be tempted to go again with grades in hand but exclude interviewing unis. Oxford presumably pre tested as well. Maybe this was an issue too. We do know many highly qualified dc don’t get in. What other unis are top rated for her course? What course is it?

Is she state or private school? Lots of schools have no expertise in Oxbridge entries. Others will know how to reapply and I think the new PS system is a series of questions so easier to complete and puts all applicants on the same track. Relevant experience is always worth it. More in depth study is worth it but if she’s not confident are either Oxford or Imperial the best choices?

Thanks @TizerorFizz

She’s at a non-selective state school. Careers support is not really geared (reasonably enough) to the very top end, she’s always been an outlier in terms of grades.

Her other choices were all top
ten unis for her subject. Tbf, even when applying, she said she’d rather give it a whirl
than have a safer bet in there (we did try hard to persuade otherwise!)

Agree she needs to take hard look at whether O/I are worth another go. Immediate
focus is head down on getting grades, but she had plans to travel with friends in the summer which I think just won’t work if she needs to do “work” of whatever kind to update her PS. That in itself is hard though, they’ve been planning for ages and she’s saved up the money for it from her PT job.

A year’ out’ so to speak and applying with grades in hand has huge benefits. She’ll be a year older and wiser. It’s truly amazing to see just how much they grow when they have a job out in the real world, dealing with the public, having to time manage extra shifts etc etc….. Travel in this year is also valuable, she will come back a different person. It’s very different from the growing they do at university which is quite a cosseting environment. With a good year out she’ll be ready.
Also with grades she’s less likely to get so many rejections, she can still put her two aspirational choices down, but the other three can be sure bets, one could even be a different choice with a separate PS.
The extra year most importantly gives her time to think, life’s not a race, she’s going to spend a long time working!
It’s also not quite so easy to travel etc… after uni, as you tend to get onto the job bandwagon.

The course makes it a trickier call potentially depending on how maths-y it is.

In general, I do not believe there is a higher bar second time around. About 25-30% of DS2's school's Oxbridge success is from reapplications. In many ways your child's reapplication logic is more robust than many's - doing it simply for Oxbridge is a tricky call as it can be so disappointing to miss again if the candidate had other appealing options the first time.

To be unlucky at the other two she applied for as well does make it worth really investigating her application (unless it was say CS where the odds are so poor).

I strongly recommend doing some very tightly crafted FOI requests for each of the schools she applied for and ones that might be on the list for next year to really drill down into 5 year offer rates data to make sure that you really know her odds. The headline ones aren't that helpful, if even available - you need to see the applicant and offer numbers sliced down into overseas and home and then into standard versus contextual/widening participation, state/independent maybe even gender so you really know what she is up against. It is amazing how flat or how differentiated those figure are at different institutions. You will also want to layer in post qualification data. Spend a long time crafting your questions as they will answer very literally.

On the what to do to boost the app, I am always a bit puzzled by the general "have a year out, so amazing things, apply with a much better PS" comments. Candidates often can't be sure that they are in a position to reapply meaningfully until mid august (especially if just doing it to try Oxbridge again) which doesn't give long to transform anything. But yes, trying to layer in another competition or relevant experience/ project would make sense, and having a subject related gap year plan to talk about would help.

But securing excellent A levels is the most crucial thing

@Maybeicanhelpyou But she won't have a year off before applying again - she'll be applying in October

@Revengeofthepangolins
she could leave applying until the end of January, my dd did

Quite. Even if she wants to reapply to Oxford, she can just put that on the initial application, then pay the extra fee to UCAS and apply to others once she knows the outcome there, since she will before the equal consideration deadline for other universities (or hopefully, not need to, if Oxford really is her first preference and she is successful this time).

My dd did this, she got onto the course she wanted, had a great year and has thousands in the bank. I honestly think it’s not a problem and you can make it work if you want it to.
She also says she’s ready for uni, whereas some of her flatmates are struggling because they’re young, never been independent, and still tired from A levels

@MarchingFrogs there is no extra fee, my DD added all her choices in on different dates.
OP, seeing the devastation in my daughter's eyes when she didn't get a Cambridge offer (three A stars in hand) even though it was a late in the day idea and she knew how slim the chance, and I'd never want her to go through that again. But you know yours best, and if determined of course you must suppprt.
Unless early application, and I have no idea when exams are for particular subjects, I think she should still travel with her friends. Unless she was going for several months there's time to travel and get some sort of work experience to boost her application. And a few months away from the classroom may open her eyes to other possibilities- and the maturity she will gain will make her better prepared for the next stage.
Applying with grades achieved should in theory make her a stronger candidate but I don't know - while Durham offered within a few weeks and Glasgow in a day, my DD is still waiting to hear from Bath (and LSE but that was a last minutes addition) even though her grades are well above entry requirements and it's not a hugely popular course. But if your DD gets her A stars that in itself will boost her confidence.

So tricky, and sending positive thoughts to you and your DD.

I think if she's had a particularly tough time this year with Covid & bereavement then there's no harm in planning to reapply for some of the same places next year, as long as some of her choices next time round are also more achievable.

There's also no reason that she shouldn't accept the final offer if it comes in, and look around in clearing to see if anything appeals, whilst having reapplying as a backup. Is there time for travelling and getting some kind of extra experience under her belt over the summer? The post-A level summer is long....

@AllTheFunOfTheHair If the remaining uni is top 10, is that really a disaster if she gets an offer from them? She did presumably choose it for a reason? I would take it if she gets it and go travelling as planned. If she gets nothing, she can reapply this year but of course choices are limited, inevitably. I would hold on to her plans to travel. She just might have had a high risk strategy which wasn’t the best policy if it’s a hugely competitive course.

FOI questions are probably not worth it. Applying strategically next year, if she has to, might be. Maybe look at the next 5 in the league tables? A maths subject is better taken straight after A levels so at the moment hold on for the offer and then review if not successful.

@mondaytosunday ah, yes, just seen that there is now a flat fee for up to five entries (our last UCAS applicant graduates this year). Since the 'multiple application' applicants no doubt massively outweigh those who apply for only one course, this does make sense, really.

It always was a standard fee for 5 choices - bizarrely there was a discount for one, so one could pay a reduced fee and then a top up when adding more later, giving rise to the misunderstanding that adding more later cost more than doing it all at once.

And putting in Oxbridge and then leaving the rest until Jan does nothing to sort the "they have had a year of amazing experiences before applying again" point, as the PS would be written in October.

My oldest DD got into Cambridge on reapplication (for vet med though, not maths) but for her it was almost a no-brainer - she had no offers first time round, so it was either reapply or give up her dream of being a vet. Then she got three A*s in her A-levels and thought she might as well give Cambridge another go.

I wouldn’t worry about trying to add things to jazz up the application necessarily - none of the unis DD applied to second time round seemed remotely interested in what she was planning to do in her gap year - especially for a maths-type subject, where I would expect the key is being able to ace the admissions tests/interview problems.

So if it was my DD, I would suggest accepting the final offer (if it comes) and seeing how the exams go. If she gets the grades she is hoping for, she can always decide at that point to ditch the offer she has and go for the gap year. She would have very little to lose. If she ends up offerless, it’s an even easier decision to make. She doesn’t really need to ditch the travel plans unless she’s planning to be away for months.

The potential issue would be how much of a problem taking a gap year would be for maths, as we’ve often heard unis don’t like it. It might be worth going to the Oxford open day at the end of June and asking advice directly from the tutors there; this would be before she’s committed to anything.

Good luck to her whatever she decides! It is tough for kids to get a string of rejections - have to try to remember it’s not personal but largely down to numbers.

The bar is not higher second time round.

However for stem subjects not all a levels are equal and there are additional entrance tests that also make a difference.

Is one of her a-levels further maths?
Did she do the step/mat/tmua?

amsp.org.uk/students/preparing-for-a-university-admissions-test/step-mat-and-tmua/

If she gets another rejection then she can make more applications through ucas extra.

www.theuniguide.co.uk/advice/ucas-application/ucas-extra-no-offers#:~:text=If%20you%20don't%20get,you%20can't%20retrieve%20it.

This is before and separate to clearing.

Clearing is obviously also a possibility.

If she decides to do a gap year she should probably keep doing some maths - further maths a level if she does not already have it.

Thanks everyone, lots of food for thought.

She is already doing FM A-Level and has got an A* in her EPQ (closely linked to her subject of choice). Did MAT and score was in top 25% (which isn’t good enough). Her PS was very heavily based on EPQ, which is partly why I’m wondering how much mileage there is in “reusing” PS or needing to dedicate summer to preparing new content if getting UCAS in for Oxbridge dates.

She was already preparing for STEP in case of needing it for any offer, so plan is to say in any reapplication that she’s continuing to work for that.

She already has a PT job, and found a work experience placement last year who loved her and offered a degree-related internship so hopefully would have that to put down if reapplying.

The final choice is Southampton, which is v good for her course, but not v far away from home! I think she’s regretting now not being more strategic in her applications (biting tongue so hard not to say told you so DD!). Good advice thanks just to let that one pan out and not make any snap decisions as yet.

Maths related courses generally don't care about the personal statement unless it says I won the IMO.

All the other Oxbridge and imperial applicants will have had similar predicted grades and they use the MAT and interviews to work out who to offer to.

Is she preparing step 2 or step 3? Either way she would probably benefit from the support programme.

www.maths.cam.ac.uk/undergrad/admissions/step

@Octavia64 At interview they might refer to PS but that only matters if she reapplies to Oxford or Imperial. I would wait for Southampton and take it from there. Loads of very good candidates don’t get Oxford or Imperial so you find great students everywhere - certainly at top 10 unis.

She could app,y by ucas extra if she either does not receive offer from Southampton or withdraws her application. It seems odd none of the others offered an apparently such a strong candidate. I wonder if her ps was not sufficiently on point. Might the subject be too niche and her benefit from a more general Maths degree with specialist modules. Does her school have a careers/ucas adviser?

@LIZS It appears the school
has been poor. Not getting an offer from the other two seems odd though and somewhat disappointing. Do Oxford and Imperial do niche courses?

According to Malcolm Gladwell, not getting into Oxford or Imperial could be the best thing that ever happened to her.

Also should be noted that Dame Wendy Hall, one of the UK's leading AI professors, is at Southampton
https://www.southampton.ac.uk/people/5wyswr/dame-wendy-hall