RG Selling Places for International Students with Low Grades

[Bratnews]

Published this evening in The Times. Hope this share token works :

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c19d0459-e4dd-4380-98b1-1765db01aac2?shareToken=420162fcf72c4322d1c9a1588a180492

Just to add, only 6670 19 years of age or under started degree apprenticeships in 22/23. 29,750 starts were 19-24 years old. 76,460 starts were 25 plus. So the odds really are stacked against school leavers . I cannot see how many degree apprenticeship starters already have a degree but we still have a huge imbalance between adults and school leavers. So when employers say they are increasing apprenticeships, the numbers of school leavers getting them is small. The Government clearly states apprenticeships are for school leavers but in practice few degree ones are.

"The fact that fundraising and a feeling of attachment or loyalty to an 'alma mater' isn't part of British culture is neither here nor there."

Well no I think it's actually pretty pertinent to the matter at hand. I'd love to hear your ideas for fundraising alternatives to international student recruitment that would work in this country and culture. @mathanxiety

Here are a few examples of fundraising webpages from UK universities:

https://www.leeds.ac.uk/give-to-leeds

https://www.brighton.ac.uk/alumni/support-us/index.aspx#:~:text=Your%20support%20makes%20a%20genuine,university's%20success%20and%20inspirational%20community.

https://give.southampton.ac.uk

DH graduated over 50 years ago. He gets begging letters from his old university. He does make the odd small donation now and again.

@RampantIvy So does DH. He doesn’t.
@ludocris The unis need big donors. I do think we have a different culture here. Americans are far more vocal about doing their bit and giving is a way of life. Here it’s not, even for the very very rich.

It's just alien to our culture, isn't it? Speaking personally I went to a perfectly fine redbrick, then a better RG for a year. Enjoyed both, liked my courses, did some socialising, played some sport, all in all it was a fun few years and I got a good education. But I feel absolutely zero attachment to either institution, and I have no interest in supporting them now, 30 years later. No one I know does so either. So I think just saying we need to 'get with the program [sic]' and start giving back is to fundamentally misunderstand the British mindset.

@TizerorFizz's idea of a deep dive into which courses and institutions aren't delivering good value is a much more sensible suggestion.

Americans are far more vocal about doing their bit and giving is a way of life. Here it’s not, even for the very very rich.

Though in the US there also seems to a lot of reluctance to pay more tax to the federal government to use to finance things like education and healthcare.

They get better tax breaks for donations :)

@MotherofPearl Due to the fact they prefer to make their own choices regarding spending money. That’s an American thing too. No NHS for them! The big donors give $millions though. As they do here but we don’t have enough of them! Is there a Branson Building or a Rausing Building? There might be but asking alumni for £50 hardly hacks it.

I shouldn't think it would make much difference to DH's tax as he doesn't donate huge sums.

I just think in the USA it’s the norm to be seen to be giving. Tax breaks or not (I think we get a tax break as well) we seem to keep money to enhance our own lives. Even when incredibly rich. We then publicise that. Obviously companies sponsor learning but it doesn’t make unis rich. In the same way that many schools have to take bursary money out of fees as they don’t have big alumni reserves.

When my DDs were at school there was a big push for alumni donations and I know Rugby has the Arnold Foundation to woo big hitters. Not sure if many unis actually target the truly wealthy - not in that category!

They're not really talking about your DH though who gives occasionally.
A lot of the money isn't from small individual donors but people who give major endowments. Also people who like the prestige... do you think Donald Trump was genuinely smart enough to get into the Ivy League regardless of his lineage? Or that he only paid his tuition fee>

But this table is comparing UK degree requirements vs overseas FOUNDATION requirements. Foundation will always require lower grades.

Why do people blame the govt . Unis need to support themselves foreign fees subsidise the real cost of home students education. And it is a good way for unis to recruit an additional year of a foreign applicant. Disclosure. I work for a London based uni

We also preferentially recruit international candidates. Well, we don’t, but if two graduate recruits are equal in all ways but one is multilingual and also can work on a project anywhere in Europe without having to get a work permit, then that’s the one who will get the job.

Because the Gov has fixed the fees for the last 12 years and not increased the grant they pay universities.

@titchy Yoh can just head the SU now snd most of Lsbour howling at increased fees. As a poster did earlier about differential fees. We need a shift in attitude IF we want to continue with high numbers getting degrees. If we accept other qualifications are worthy, then we can steer more dc into appropriate courses.

I don’t think fundraising will help. Universities with huge endowments have astronomical fees. While they say they are need blind, they still expect a healthy portion from parents.

My DCs are loving proof that they don't.

We’d have to know your declared family income, what your DC are paying, and where your DC are enrolled for us to appreciate what you are trying to say@mathanxiety

Student debt is a much bigger issue in the USA because universities are not topping up as much as they could.

Do you not think their education or training would benefit the UK?

It's incredibly short sighted to kick people out once they have their PhD or other advanced degree when there are plenty of other options for them when it comes to postgrad study - places that will value their expertise, entrepreneurial spirit, etc. and allow them to stay.

If Britain kicks people out, they will simply stop coming. This is not a good thing unless you like the zero sum approach for some reason.

Personally I'm saving my sympathy for the domestic students edged out or otherwise screwed up by this. SO many threads on here of DC with 4xAstar or A not getting any offers at all to read Economics at top RG unis where these foreign students are getting in with half to a third of the UCAS points. Those home students who do get in are then being screwed over by international students not up to the course who CBA to improve their English still asking the same basic questions at the end of year 3 that they were asking at the beginning of year 1 as they CBA to make an effort. Friend of mine is a lecturer on a course that is very poplar with CHinese international students and she despairs for our home students. One year she tried reporting some students who had clearly never passed the Cambridge English course they were required to have to access UK unis and had clearly got someone else to take the exam for them or had otherwise gamed the system and she was threatened with a disciplinary for raising the question...

DC1 is at a UK conservatoire where all non UK students have to have the Cambridge course - lots of them allegedly have it and yet cannot string a basic phrase - let alone a sentence -together - something like "lets go from bar 50" or "shall we meet to rehearse on Thursday" is beyond them unless it is communicated via their phone so they can use Google translate. SO the Cambridge cert may well be a good standard of English but lots of international students seem to be able to pass it on pretty well zero ability (or delegated ability because the ID checking system isn;t good enough).

@mathanxiety

I was being objective in saying there is a political element to this. Immigration is a bit political issue and it can't be denied that student visas or a factor. If governments of whatever strip e think immigrant numbers are too high then HE is going to be a consideration.

Not at or top conservatoires - in DCs year there are 30 pianists - 2 are home students....

One way in which US universities encourage donations is via legacy admissions. A process which in certain lights, might be seen as buying your child a place.

Doing the same here would increase the willingness of more affluent graduates to donate, but I doubt it be popular.