RG Selling Places for International Students with Low Grades

[Bratnews]

Published this evening in The Times. Hope this share token works :

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c19d0459-e4dd-4380-98b1-1765db01aac2?shareToken=420162fcf72c4322d1c9a1588a180492

Interestingly, the top performers in the STEM course at our new university are overseas students.

@poetryandwine the problem with the Italian approach is that there's no incentive to actually finish university. Nobody fails. Everybody stays until they're happy with their grade. Everybody therefore graduates with the top mark (110 e lode).

I teach in a state school and I literally don't know any of my former students who haven't graduated with 110 e lode. How does an employer then differentiate? I suppose they look at how long it took them to get to the 110.

It's quite funny, because when relatives ask dd what results she's getting, and she says "my last exam I got 67" they all do a sad face and pat her on the back saying "keep trying, I'm sure everything will be OK" 😂

@mondaytosunday There is something newish called International First Year. This is what offers direct entry into Y2.

In theory it could be good, whether offered by a private provider or the universities themselves - the Y1 curriculum integrated with intensive English acculturation, etc. In practise I have significant doubts, especially concerning programmes offered by private providers.

To clarify; the vast majority of Overseas students take the IELTS exam and it is this requirement that is generally too low, especially in STEM. It is not uncommon that one must talk with a small group of overseas students together, with one translating. Of course a student with English that weak is all but cut off from confidential pastoral support. (There are ways to provide it, but few in this position will attempt access)

As time goes on some improve their English and others regress.

I agree with a PP that many of these students are academically excellent.

@BlindurErBóklausMaður Thats what DD said. She saw students graduating at undergrad level after 7 years. Bologna students shout in the streets when they eventually pass. However this uni did give us the Bachelors degree but it’s slipped down the world tables alarmingly.

@poetryandwine off topic a little, but re your comment This is shoddy journalism, unfortunately, this appears to be the default mode of The Times nowadays.

Their latest editor appears to believe their strategy is to compete for Daily Mail/Daily Express readers instead of producing quality, well written articles and commentary.

And I won't even start to comment on the low levels of literary and grasp of the English language some of their journalists practice nowadays

@jennylamb1 Unfortunately only around 50% of grads do pay for their degrees. Now the government is extending payment length this should increase. The tax payer underwrites the loans. It’s therefore possible to see which degrees are paying the least back. The IFS has crunched the numbers. Many people do equate fees with high grading expectations and it’s about time more students got realistic grades because we know employers don’t trust unis - well some of them.

One of the unis that gives a lot of firsts has been Lincoln. It’s also been in the forefront of unconditional offers too. Lincolnshire has the highest number of grads doing non graduate work. Cumbria is the next area of grads not doing grad work. So why are we paying for these degrees and allowing such a rampant increase in numbers to take place? Only because of political noise about fees. Little political noise about maintenance costs. Even the SU doesn’t understand uni funding.

Yes, DD has two friends at Bologna and it's still considered very good within Italy, (dd herself may have gone there had she not opted for the UK) but I can see how the whole "finish when you please" thing has an effect when comparing countries.

My most famous anecdote was when my adult student told me her son had recently told her he'd need another 3-4 years before he graduated. He was 36 and had been on his undergraduate course since he was 19!

Universities are struggling financially. I work at one and they’ve said they need to slash 25% of the budget and that the majority of the budget goes on staff. So I think the translation is they need to lose 25% of staff.

Which isn’t fair on the staff left behind who are already worked into the ground and also the students. We’ve ben told to timetable less teaching time so we can cope next year, plan less assessments, etc. we’ve already had a lot of time for planning taken away from us…..so I just don’t plan/prep sessions as much, bare minimum. Regurgitation of stuff from previous years which will have to happen indefinitely.

So I can see why universities are doing this with international students, it’s keeping them afloat. Maybe tuition fees for home students needs to go up to improve the financial situation? They haven’t gone up for years but with inflation and interest rises the universities’ costs are going up. What are they meant to do? Some of it I guess may be poor financial decisions, budgeting, wasting money on vanity projects….I don’t know, well above my pay grade.

When a business cannot make ends meet it’s bankrupt. It ceases to trade. Does a uni ever get to this position? Maybe a few should.

@BlindurErBóklausMaður As many students live at home maybe there’s no pressing need to graduate. 7 years looks speedy in comparison to that! DD loved Bologna but found the uni disorganised.

There are rumours in education that there are a few universities that are very close to bankrupt. The question is, what happens if one does? There could be 20,000 students who suddenly find that their courses have stopped.

Some of them may be able to transfer to other unis but course content often isn't that transferable. Would those students be expected to pay back the loans they've got for an incomplete education?

Best-case would be a merger with another uni but, to be honest, the unis that are at most financial risk are the ones lower down the tables and it's hard to see what benefit there would be for the buyer.

Thank you, @BlindurErBóklausMaður

I had wrongly assumed that students retaking exams in Italy would have their makes capped. However I think there is something to be said for really mastering a subject. If the number of attempts is recorded employers can see that, and in any event they can see how long students take to acquire their degrees.

It isn’t good, but UK employers can no longer differentiate either with 3/4 of students at many unis getting a 2.1 or better.

When a business cannot make ends meet it’s bankrupt. It ceases to trade. Does a uni ever get to this position? Maybe a few should

When a business is selling a fixed price product, then the sensible thing to do is diversify to sell a product which doesn't have a fixed price - that's sensible, and exactly what universities are doing!

Yes - some unis will (have already) close (merged with others nearby is actually the more likely option). Oh and closures won't be limited to the post-94s either...

There'll be mergers. Existing students will transfer to another provider - I was tangentially involved in taking students from a failing provider some time ago. There'll always be someone willing to APL them over, and the regulator will oversee the process.

Nothing new.

I’ve never know anyone amongst my family and friend group who’s child has gone to the UK to study as an international student and they’ve had to enter a foundation year. That includes 4 of my 5 children who studied abroad. In fact my granddaughter is starting uni this year in the UK and she’ll go straight into first year of an architectural degree with high scores at IB needed.

I get so fed up of the generalised misinformation and nonsense posted here about international students.

@user15913 I am glad to hear of steps being taken to prevent cheating during online exams. It is a big problem for honest students. I am not sure there is much of a Home/Overseas divide, not that you were implying such.

I was wondering about the Times’s recent standards, @lastdayatschool . Thank you for the assurance that I am not just hetting grumpy

So not surprised by this. It's not new.

@poetryandwine that's for jobs - I don't think unis are doing the same....they need to be - or return to in-person exams I think. Not fair on students home or overseas who are honest.

Thanks for the explanation.

They should extend their investigation into companies recruiting graduates for the top Graduate schemes - I've observed a huge swing bias towards the international students at Assessment Centres for our grad scheme. The profile of those making it through to that stage has changed significantly in recent years - and I think we need to know what's going on in the background there.

@thechangling Perhaps what your company is looking for has changed? What are the differences between former successful grads and now? Assuming it’s not just the international factor? Have the skills you desire altered?

@titchy It is a fact that business close. John Lewis is making 11,000 redundant or losing staff through natural wastage. Too many uk unis are competing for the better students and having to resort to non conditional offers to put bums on seats. There is no correlation between funding and outcomes. The charge is the same for inferior products. Would you pay the same for a Fiat 500 as you do for a Rolls Royce? Obviously not but at uni you do. If you cannot make your business pay, you end up without a business. The banks will not lend any more. Of course they close. It’s painful but as a uni you would stop recruiting.

There'll be mergers. Existing students will transfer to another provide

not always. Last year a southern university had to stop a particular course towards the end (but before the end) of the academic year. A few students transferred to another university but were all told they had to start that academic year from scratch. The new uni couldn’t take them all so a lot were left high and dry and some were about a month from finishing the degree. No idea if they have to pay fees

@BlindurErBóklausMaður (I addressed a comment to you earlier but your name wasn’t bolded; I hope you saw it). CAE has the reputation of being amongst the most difficult or perhaps the most difficult of the English Language qualifications. Any particular reason your DD chose it? Bath accepts all the standard ones.

@CormorantStrikesBack which southern university was that, please?

Are you talking about nursing at CCCU? That wasn't a in