RG Selling Places for International Students with Low Grades

[Bratnews]

Published this evening in The Times. Hope this share token works :

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c19d0459-e4dd-4380-98b1-1765db01aac2?shareToken=420162fcf72c4322d1c9a1588a180492

PWC's recently published higher education financial sustainability report

https://www.pwc.co.uk/industries/government-public-sector/education/financial-sustainability-of-uk-higher-education-sector.html

Some interesting sensitivity analysis but also some fairly broad generalisations within the report

and the summary from Universities UK

https://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/what-we-do/policy-and-research/publications/financial-sustainability-uk-universities#:~:text=The%20sector's%20current%20financial%20sustainability,-The%20UK%20higher&text=In%20England%2C%20fees%20for%20domestic,level%20in%20over%2025%20years.

In 1970, 9% of 18 year olds went to uni. Now it’s 40%. Quite simply the taxpayers funding all of it wasn’t tenable so all parties go with fees and loans. The money isn’t there for direct state payments. Also loans have been popular judging by numbers going to uni

@TizerorFizz given the previous loan terms not really surprising though. Plan 5 and the move to a 40 year repayment term might start changing that. Alongside maintenance loan falling increasingly behind inflation. However I think your point about degree (no pun intended) of understanding is very pertinent.

We've never quite got to 40% of 18 year olds going, but I'd agree quite close to that. 38.2% "Peak Student" in 2021 then back to 35.8% in the 2023 cycle. I suspect the current cycle could see a further small contraction. I guess we'll have a clearer view on that pretty soon when UCAS published the end Jan cycle report.

London however 50% participation rate

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7857/

@boys3 Yes. I rounded up! We have seen a 4 times increase in intervention students in 30 years though so this is a growth area. I do believe most are qualified to be here though. We might see fewer dc applying but that will depend on several things.

I'm interested to know how overseas students contribute or not to any widening access or EDI targets.
As a terrible oversimplification, it's more likely that overseas students will on average come from slightly better off families than home students that might fill these criteria. It's also harder to decide who was state educated (different systems and ways of organizing schooling).

I don't believe international students qualify under WP criteria.

Aaah! Not intervention students. International students.

Also all the way through the student fee politics it’s been said students would stop applying due to fees. They haven’t. The only dent in applications will be realistic A level grades and more degree apprenticeships for 18 year olds. I’ve just been listing to three police apprentices on the radio. None were under 20. All had previous jobs. This is repeated time and time again and 18 year olds are frozen out of apprenticeships. Part time degree students are also well down in numbers.

Same when dd was looking at accommodation.
The arrangement was that they had to have a UK based guarantor or pay the year upfront. They had one international student who had to pay upfront.

The Guardian article makes it clear that they are combining Oxford and Cambridge, and thst the valuation of the 'riches' includes the value of collections of art and antiques.

The endowment funds of US universities tend to be in cash and other financial instruments.

They are not the result of massive endowments from the rich of long ago accruing interest over the last hundred years either. Fundraising is ongoing and done professionally and with no apology. Management of funds raised is also done professionally.

I get regular phone calls and fundraising appeals in the mail from the universities my DCs attended, from their private primary school, and from exH's private high school. A recent fundraising campaign by one university yielded $5.4 billion.
news.uchicago.edu/story/university-chicago-campaign-raises-543-billion-support-inquiry-and-impact
Note the names of the different buildings and institutes. The money to build, equip, and staff these buildings or for their overhaul came from donors.

Donations to universities, schools, and other institutions are undertaken by individuals and trusts. There are positive tax consequences from charitable and educational donations. The wider financial system is set up to encourage philanthropy on a massive scale.

British universities were very foolish to accept government control over their finances and should be looking for alternative funding sources. Even state universities in the US have large endowments and actively solicit donations from alumni and from business.

@TizerorFizz also for you

International students can only apply to a limited number of graduate employers who sponsor work visas. So you're going to get a high concentration of capable people applying for you over other employers solely because they have little choice. Many are aware of this and have their eyes on the prize, having paid a significant sum to study here. Because of the career focus international students are at the career centre from day 1, focusing on getting work experience , practicing interview technique that makes them more polished and more likely to sail through interviews. .

I went to a prestigious university so most people, no matter their nationality were like this. But I was quite surprised at the stark difference in attitude when I visited/organised events with friends at other unis. You see it even on MN. The locals only start thinking about careers after graduation, never mind actually applying. Saying 'people need time to find their feet' and have a rest after graduating blah2. Many people are just only starting to properly study in second year after pissing about in first year while international students are busy applying for internships at the start of second year, having done the research in first year.

FYI a lot of international students also have networks, AC's tend to re-use the questions so a lot of the time they'll have gotten advice from seniors who keep detailed notes. Or, people who took the summer internship interviews, that often have the same process as the graduate but less the final interview, or an intermediary video interview. That's not above board, but is it outright cheating? I don't know...

I have mentored many young people and am quite surprised how many don't know about the process. Or how to prepare. Even from so-called 'RG unis'. They just do general prep for interviews but that's not enough for these things. You need to be strategic and targeted, like tracking opening dates and applying the moment they open thanks to rolling basis recruitment.

@lsealumni I don't think it is fair to compare overseas students who come to study here with all home students. It's like comparing apples with oranges.

These students already know what they want to do. What about the students who stay in their home countries to study. Are they all as focussed as the ones who come here?

You aren't wrong in saying that a lot of students have no idea what they want to do after university. If you read the WIWIKAU Facebook page there are an awful lot of young people who don't know what they want to study at university.

@mathanxiety most UK universities do have alumni and fundraising teams. But as pp have pointed out, the UK does not have the same culture of donating to one's 'Alma Mater'.

@mathanxiety the size of the endowment funds of Oxford is £8.1 billion. The size of the endowment funds at Cambridge is £7.8 billion (most recent figures were from 2022). In $ USD terms these are just over $10 billion. As noted in Wikipedia, those endowment figures do "not reflect all the assets held by the colleges as their accounts do not include the cost or value of many of their main sites or heritage assets such as works of art or libraries."

Oxford and Cambridge would sit comfortably in the top 20 of US institutions by endowment size, and ahead of several Ivy League colleges including Cornell, Dartmouth and Brown and other elite names such as Caltech.

Four Imperial college departments accepted more Chinese students than British students. "Two completely different allocations" is wishful thinking - these departments would be largely empty if the Chinese students weren't there.
The cumulative effect of several top-tier institutions (e.g. Imperial, LSE, UCL) handing out a majority of their places to overseas students is that thousands of home students are pushed into lower-tier institutions.

https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/student-advice/where-to-study/international-students-at-uk-universities

@piisnot3

Nope.

A couple of universities at undergraduate level have around 50-50 UK and international students overall. Yes, they're London ones, yes, they're, as would be expected, finance, economics etc heavy. There's no one university at undergraduate level offering 4 times as many places to international students.

There's a report also on the House of Commons library website showing that the number of international students in general is falling, which is a worry for ££££s that these students bring in.

@lsealumni Why for me? My DD knew what she wanted and planned how to get it! She’s obviously international in outlook and sprinted out of the job starting blocks!

Plenty don’t get round to it but I think laid back parents play a role here. Our friends with DC who didn’t do much think the degree is what matters.They have not prioritised working or networking. No one seems to worry that they don’t have a job after a year

Also at any decent university there’s a careers office, guidance and careers fairs of which some have top employers attending. If students don’t bother to engage that’s down to them. The best do. A uni doesn’t teach dc how to apply for and get a job. So where they attend is somewhat irrelevant. It’s personal drive and ambition that leads to the career they want but quite a few don’t want it at all.

@lsealumni you're spot on. Our skills profile hasn't changed, but the profile of those making it through the Assessment Centre has changed significantly in recent years. All the recruitment and first stages of the selection process is done through a third party. And we're not really getting the people we want tbh.

Also at any decent university there’s a careers office, guidance and careers fairs of which some have top employers attending. If students don’t bother to engage that’s down to them. The best do. A uni doesn’t teach dc how to apply for and get a job. So where they attend is somewhat irrelevant. It’s personal drive and ambition that leads to the career they want but quite a few don’t want it at all.

Sadly, this wasn't available for DD's cohort due to covid, but she knows what she wants and how to get it. She will never be a sprinter like your DD due to health issues, but she has done incredibly well in spite of them.

Assets are not earning interest, and they are costing a fair bit in insurance and maintenance while they're sitting in museums. Same goes for the many museums and art collections of a large number of American universities.

The bald fact is that only two universities in the UK have endowments above £1bn. Over eighty US universities, if I've counted right, both private and state, have endowments above $1bn.

The fact that fundraising and a feeling of attachment or loyalty to an 'alma mater' isn't part of British culture is neither here nor there. Brexit has squeezed research funds, and universities are low hanging fruit for governments targeting areas for cuts. If British universities are to survive and thrive, they need to find a way to adequately fund themselves. Tuition fees paid by students (even foreign students) isn't the way forward.

Here are some snapshots of US university fundraising, from a variety of universities:

giving.georgetown.edu/?_ga=2.104803587.2086752072.1706586046-1812104400.1706586045
Georgetown University.
A leading RC university.

www.bowdoin.edu/fromhere/index.html
'The Campaign for Bowdoin'
Bowdoin College is a leading liberal arts college.

advancement.illinois.edu/
University of Illinois Office of Advancement website.
A state university.

forhumanity.yale.edu/about-campaign
'The Yale Campaign'
A leading Ivy League school.

www.goshen.edu/give/areas-to-support/gc-fund/
The Goshen College Fund.
A small college with ties to the Mennonite church.

Spot on.

There’s also the fact that in many countries it’s normal practice to pay a years rent up front for any kind of accommodation and to offer a years rent in advance even if it’s 12 cheques is what they’re used to.

Your post makes very little sense. For a start, where did I say that 'all' home students were the same as 'all' international students? That's illogical. I was merely stating my observations.

Students that stay home, are by definition not 'international' students'. Furthermore, if you had actually read and understood my post properly. The reason for people being so 'focused' is because they want to work in the UK. They might not not necessarily know what they want to do, they just want a sponsored job. Fulfilment, 'passion' etc is just not a consideration.

Bear in mind that very few fields , and within them, companies, sponsor visas. Even for supposed 'shortage professions'. I'm in tech, have very valuable, niche skills. But still couldn't move jobs. Because companies don't want to sponsor visas. The moment I got permanent residency the offers flooded in. If even I found it difficult, imagine a new graduate that has very little to offer. Much, much harder.

Now, obviously, all of this doesn't apply to people staying in their home countries, where they already have the right to work.

Also, I sense that you think I'm making a value judgement on which attitude is better. I'm not. Just pointing out that when a group has limited opportunity it makes sense for them to grab hold of it with both hands.

Home students will always have more opportunity. They're not restricted to grad schemes with a few companies for a start. Direct entry jobs with large firms, all the other firms that don't sponsor visas, working your way up from an unrelated job, there's plenty. There's nothing wrong with taking the time to decide, but that's a personal choice. The idea that international students compete on the same basis as locals isn't correct.

Well you asked if the skills profile changed so I just tagged you in my post.
@thechangling yes, when things are structured so heavily it's much easier to game and memorise them. At the final stages you have no control really, people have already been filtered out.
I do know that many are moving towards apprenticeships, my firm certainly is!

I think this feeds into the national political debate on legal immigration. We have hundreds of thousands of international students many of whom wish to get jobs in the UK. A reason for studying in the UK is not just university quality but the ability to apply for jobs and stay in the UK.

From personal experience there is huge pressure to do this and I have found foreign students graduating from UK universities being quite desperate for suitable skilled jobs in th UK to fulfil visa requirments. Many have family in the UK and would find a return home to some societies really unpalatable.

We don't consider deportation a lot but there are many graduates that fall into this category and I think we need to consider this when considering foreign students. We are keen for their fees for the university economy but we cannot just think the foreign graduate simply wishes to return home; many wish to stay in the UK because the lifestyle and prospects are better.

It’s over 20 years ago but I used to have a lodger from Kenya who was an architecture student here, got a job after qualifying here and was then deported. He got a letter one day saying as his studies were complete he no longer had reason to stay and he was to leave. He never appealed it so not sure what would have happened if he had. So they do/did ask people to leave.

The company might not have fulfilled their sponsorship obligations... or he might have been knowingly been working for them illegally.
@mids2019 , you're right. And I think the same applies to many other countries. The difference is that, other countries don't have as many international students due to language barriers. Although this is changing for European countries with cheap higher education.
I personally was lucky enough to get a scholarship, and a graduate job after. Had the latter not happened I'd have returned home, as it turns out I married a local and so am still here.
In terms of ease of PR the UK is middling I'd say? 5 years seems to be the standard, the EU is moving to standardise it for all member states.
The US is not only hard to get a visa for, but difficult to apply for permanent residency. As I understand there's a quota for green cards and it's not automatic unlike the UK and many EU countries (subject to passing a written test).

@mids2019 I cannot remember where I read this, but I think students from some countries want to stay more than others. I believe it said Chinese students are note likely go back and Nigerian students more likely to stay here. The largest number of overseas students are postgrad students.

I think the point about wanting a competitive job is well made and how that stimulates getting ducks in a row. For the career minded it does. Others do know the difficulty in getting the job they want but think their degree and even masters is all they need and don’t bother to do anything else. I don’t understand this attitude but certainly many have it. @RampantIvy I obviously can see DC were restricted during COVID but they are a minority. Many had opportunities but didn’t do anything for their cv for years before that catastrophe.

I also think a lot of people in the uk think that as pension age is increasing you might as well enjoy yourself while you can and work later. It’s definitely cultural. I looked at the stats for French from Oxford recently and found 80% in the employment/education data. I have to say I was amazed. This is probably due to travelling but it seemed low. It’s lower than English at 84% and Psychology 85%.