Degree at 16

[3StepsForward]

Does anyone have experience of their DC starting a degree course at 16.

If so, what were the things you wished you considered before they did? Any tips or advice? Do you feel they missed out on peer interactions? Did the university put anything specific in place.

DC would live at home rather than in halls/student accommodation. They won't have A levels, but will have some qualifications in the subject that are at a higher level and are likely to be ahead of a lot of the other students in certain areas.

Degree subject is one that needs a very particular skill set rather than needing a more rounded maturity level (if that makes sense). University are happy that they can access the course - and keen to have them (already doing things with the department).

We are looking at alternative options that would keep them with peer cohort, but it will mean repeating work they were already doing at a high level at 13/14 and is likely to be a problem for any sixth form unless they can differentiate massively and basically provide a bespoke course.

DC is also ND and has very firm ideas on what they do, are extremely persistent and stubborn and so studying something else from 16-18 is not going to fly. They are not overly interested in the social side of university life (but that could change 😱)

Just trying to spot all potential pitfalls in advance.

DDs sport involved 14 hours a week training plus competition. The girl who went to UCL at 16 was lovely and part of the gang and they had no idea she was two years ahead of them academically. DD was a couple of years older than the two boys who were Undergraduates at 13. She did not really hang out with the younger boys, but they too seemed fine. University then becomes a sort of school/college that provides the right level of teaching. A bit like going to a different sixth form to your friends. Your academic life and social life are separate.

@3StepsForward

It's ADHD not ASD - although some ASD traits are present in ADHD that aren't always the obvious Daily Mail story ones.

I'm aware, as I said in my post both myself and my DD have ADHD, so you're preaching to the converted

I assumed ASD because when most people use the term ND as opposed to being specific, they tend to mean autism. (That's why I'm not keen on ND as a label really, but that's a bugbear). FWIW, I'm in a creative profession, there are many of us with ADHD, and collaborating is on average one of our strengths! So your DC may get there.

I'm probably more concerned about emotional vulnerability and potential romantic entanglements (but that can happen anywhere I suppose).

That is specifically what I meant by 'being taken advantage of'. Being blunt and speaking generally, if your son isn't gay then this won't be too much of a concern. Is certainly is though with younger girls & gay boys though.

Some 16 year olds won't look younger. Some totally well. I looked much younger when I went to university, where I was the youngest of the entire campus at the time in my first year, and it was an issue.

Anyway that's my view based on personal experience of being younger and having neurodiversity and two kids with ADHD.

I don't have any personal experience of having a gifted musician but I have a good friend with an exceptionally talented musical child, and I'm surprised that in London there aren't any sixth forms that suit, eg Brit School or those most focused. But I don't know what your son's 'pathway' is.

I'm going to take a stab at it being composition. I'd be surprised if they can get away with so little collaboration. DC1 is at RCM and has had to collaborate with the second year composers as they have to do a collaborative project at that point. Having said that there are plenty of under 18s in the London conservatoires and the composers she's friends with do seem to spend most of their time in their rooms working rather than at college - can be quite a lonely life.

It does worry me though that your DS is very rigid in how he will work - he might come across as difficult and most of the musicians I know pick people to work with based partly on how they get on in rehearsals etc. He might end up not being able to work with the people he wants as they are ood enough to pick and choose and choose not to work with him. (He probably gets away with it at the moment as he is seen as a novelty.)

I do think it would be worth looking at the specialist music schools near LOndon. I'm pretty sure there is a working relationship between Purcell and Junior Guildhall and Guildhall have a programme where if you are good enough you can start undergrad in the sixth form - basically you remain a "pupil" of the Juniors but are doing undergrad studies and can then transfer into the seniors as a second year with credit for the work you've already done. We looked at this as it was offered to my DC but they chose to go for the full boarding sixth form specialist experience at Wells. One advantage of the specialist schools is that you can work with some of the very best young musicians globally and do an A level or 2 in a different subject - I imagine that physics might be useful for a composer in understanding acoustics etc. And languages are always useful.

3StepsForward are plan B etc possible without further sixth form type qualifications? It would be good to make the most of the window of free education.

As parent of a young student: It has worked for us pretty much as @Needmoresleep has described. So: it's not that rare in London, London unis are happy to take younger applicants providing they're as well qualified as older applicants. Uni essentially acts as college providing teaching, facilities etc. at the right level, and it is basically like going to a different sixth form to your friends. But, importantly, no allowance is made for age - there is no hand-holding and not a minute of extra staff contact.

In the course of doing our homework we found:

1. UCAS puts the numbers of under 18's entering UK unis at around 6000 per year. These stats exclude about half of Scottish students who don't apply through UCAS, so are an underestimate. Nearly 90% of them are overseas students. I think this explains the "invisibility" of this group - they're seen primarily as overseas students, not "young" students. The fact that 90% of them are overseas says a lot about the rigidity of the UK school system.

2. Stats published in the guardian said that 71% of under-18 students were 17 on entry, implying that 29% were 16 or younger.

3. Legally, unis are obliged to have age-blind admissions policies by the 2010 equality act. Some unis comply with the law; others flout it openly. The GMC imposes extra regulations on medicine and related courses requiring students to turn 18 by the first term of the course, due to early clinical contact.

4. Going to uni at 16 or 17 in Scotland is less common than it once was, but still common enough that it doesn't excite much comment. Scottish law is also different in that the age of legal capacity is 16.

5. Policies and responses from individual universities basically fell into three camps:
   a) we don't care what age you are as long as you're qualified, but we're not going to hold your hand (Imperial, Edinburgh, UCL, Kings, Warwick; the rest of the uni of London system and other Scottish unis would probably be similar)
   b) we'll pretend your application is welcome but subtly discriminate behind the scenes then refuse your FOI request to cover our tracks. (Oxford).
   c) we won't even pretend your application is welcome because we know we can flout equality law and pay our legal teams enough to get away with it (Cambridge, Durham, Surrey).

I would look at protected year off experiences from 16 to 18 if you can afford it - can they study abroad for a year, and then do some voluntary work for a year?

If they’d just hate that, then crack on and send them now, just keep in mind it won’t be a typical uni experience, and it may not do much to help them mature.

@piisnot3 did you try a subject access request rather than an FOI with Oxford? You might get a bit further. Pretty shocking that there are universities that flout the law on this - I wonder how they justify it?

Legally, unis are obliged to have age-blind admissions policies by the 2010 equality act

Please can you provide me with a source for this @piisnot3 ? I cannot find one.

Universities are allowed to not accept under 18 year olds under the Equality Act 2010 if they can justify doing so is proportionate and to achieve a legitimate aim. There are justifiable reasons why universities won't take some under 18s.

Exeter's policy which a pp linked to above, says that they rarely offer to anyone under 16. I know of at least one university who will give places to under 18s but their admission policy is that those students have to defer one year (if 17) and more if say 16.

It depends on the subject, and I'm not just talking abut medicine where there is a professional code to abide by where you have to be 18.

The aforementioned 13 year olds at Imperial will be doing a STEM subject, but many universities would say they won't have the emotional maturity or age to do certain social science or humanities subjects. And they'd be able to legitimately justify that given the course material.

None of this is specifically relevant to the GP, I'm talking generally.

no allowance is made for age - there is no hand-holding and not a minute of extra staff contact.

I assume you're talking about staff contact in terms of lessons, @piisnot3 ?
There absolutely should be extra staff contact from a pastoral point of view, as most universities acknowledge in their admission policy re under 18s. This will obviously apply much more though if the under 18 is living at the university and not at home as I assume from what you said that your YP does.

Writerofwrongs the first para in the Imperial policy attached in an earlier post, says

1.1. Imperial College London recognises that, following the Equality Act 2010, it is
obliged to consider applications from candidates of all ages who meet
advertised academic entry requirements. However, following the advice of
the Equality Challenge Unit, the College will assess an applicant’s ability and
readiness for university study at a large institution which operates several
research-led campuses in a major capital city.

If you read the whole policy it is clearly something they have thought carefully about and taken advice on. For example they don’t offer more tutorial support, but they do promise experienced tutors. Part of the reason for posting it is even if OPs DC is studying a different subject Imperial’s approach provides a useful template for asking questions to other institutions.

Most if not all universities have thought very carefully and have detailed policies about minors @Needmoresleep ! Some have better policies IMO.

What you said backs up what I said above, that there isn't an 'age blind policy' and that 'extra' staff support will be provided. Or should be. I appreciate in practice this might not happen.

Re age blind policy: universities have to consider applications from younger students but they will know their age - that isn't blocked out. They are then allowed to say no on the basis of age if certain criteria and commitments aren't met.

@WriterOfWrongs i think what @piisnot3 was saying is that a blanket no U18s policy is likely unlawful. The fact that many universities DO admit U18s shows that reasonable adjustments are in fact achievable. If IC and Kings can do it, then the argument would be that there is no reason why other universities cannot - at which point it would very much look like age discrimination. While there are age exceptions in the EA for schools, there aren’t any for universities (compare sections 84 and 90). Course-by-course age discrimination is lawful, blanket policies are not.

@puncheur thanks I get that, and they/you are right that a blanket no under 18s policy is unlawful. But it's important to correct @piisnot3 's statement that it's an 'age blind policy', because it is NOT in the literal sense or how some people regard other 'blind' policies.

Absolutely reasonable adjustments are achievable. It is possible. But I think you've not understood some of the points I was making. Using Imperial as an example, as I said above that is a STEM university. They don't do many courses where the content won't be objectively unsuitable for a 13 year old. So it is easier for them to take on minor students.

A 13 year old can do the maths or not. They don't need world experience or emotional maturity in the same way they do on other courses. I highly doubt for example that King's would take on a 13 year old for one of the courses in their War Studies department, and they'd be justified to say no on that basis under the EA.

The subject I went to university for as an English under 18 year old, and got a degree in, was law.

@WriterOfWrongs agreed but realistically no 13 year old will be studying those humanities subjects anyway. The only academic subjects where you get that kind of precocious talent are music and maths.

There will be plenty of students who are 17 when they start however (as you were) and there is absolutely no reason to block them from any courses - Scottish universities where 17 year old freshers are much more common certainly don’t.

one of my oldest friends from uni started age 17 and lived in halls with the rest of us and no one thought anything of it. No special allowances or anything and had no problem getting served in the union bar 😁

I went to uni at 18 but wasn't ready, I'd have benefited more from going a year later. Academically I did OK, but fundamentally didnt really understand some things ( now diagnosed autistic). University is now so expensive it's realistically a once in a lifetime thing, even if you go back for further study like an MA it isn't quite the same. Will he get the most out of the opportunity now, or would he academically, creatively, socially and personally get more out of the experience if he waited a few years?

My husband's cousin was 16 when she entered university after skipping a lot of secondary years. She didn't last out the year because she was emotionally overwhelmed. She has told me that being placed so far ahead of her peers in secondary school and college destroyed her confidence as she was emotionally out of her depth and felt very insecure. She eventually went to a local university while living at home and attained a Masters in Bio Chemistry very young

This is one of the reasons that I'm only considering it if DC lives at home for at least the first 2 years. That way they can escape, I can keep an eye and they only have to focus on the course and not trying to live independently.

This is one of the things I'm weighing up.

DC has been on this path since they were tiny, and is very focused. They were basically a bit miffed that they couldn't specialise from Reception onwards - happily they've been lucky enough to have teachers who have managed to engage them in other subjects too along the way! We've tried to keep everything as normal as possible, and it's always been the case that nobody would mind if they want to do something else.

They're highly likely to continue working in this area, so whether they go at 16, 18, 25 or 40 they'd get a huge amount out of the opportunity. There are very big pluses to doing it early - as long as they can manage the course content.

In terms of the cost, there are alternatives that are cheaper - but we all have concerns that they might be a bad fit (in which case the cost could be high in terms of confidence and general happiness), or we could put together something ad hoc that is likely to end up costing as much or more than university fees!

Socially, it's highly likely they'd get more out of it when they're older but they can also have a social life at the right age outside university. I don't think they would particularly crave the halls/freshers week/sports & societies type of thing.

What else is she/he involved in with students/friends their own age that aren't focused on academics?

I notice that a couple of posters have said that university is like college. No it isn't.

There is no hand holding, students don't get a chance to build a rapport with lecturers and tutors the way they did with teacherss at school. They don't get chased for work or reminded about deadlines.

Students need to be self motivated and self starters. To do well they need to read around and over and above their subject.

Other concerns are about how to study - for example will the course involve writing a dissertation in year 3? @3StepsForward What experience does your DC have in wriing such a lengthy piece of work? DD's geography NEA was around 6,000 words, and the research, data collection, referencing and structure of writing it eqipped her with the skills to write her dissertation. Many students also acquire these skills when writing an EPQ.

If your DC skips 6th form how will they pick up these skills?

A lot of music degrees have the option of a performance project or final recital instead of a dissertation.

It's a very different set up from a normal university department. Huge number of contact hours, ability to book in with staff or technicians if you need a hand-hold or get stuck.

I suspect they are used to a high percentage of SEN as I've never seen help like what is on offer (or things have changed a lot at tertiary level).

There are written elements - but you can choose not to write and present in a different format if you prefer.

No dissertation as the focus of the degree is very much on the practical and not history or academic thoughts around it.

I obviously don't know much about music degrees, my experience being with STEM degrees. It's good to hear that your DC will get the support they need @3StepsForward

When DD’s school suggested she move up a couple of years we moved schools. She has been happy being in her own age group and we have worked hard in other ways to keep her academic interests fueled. Having the right level of maturity is important for young people to access the best out of an experience at the academic levels being spoken of.

It was more important for DD to stay with her peers. I spoke with a friend who did do everything early. Her overriding memory is thet in the end the child prodigy isn’t a prodigy any more, just someone who got to miss out on huge chunks of life. That is of course just one perspective but one I didn’t want to risk for my DD.

DD is now at Cambridge, living her best life, going clubbing, studying hard too, not living at home but happy to come home. If she went early she would have missed out on so much. Her time as a young adult (not under my supervision) is a segway to independence etc.

I knew a few 16yos when I went to uni. All lived in halls and finished the course having done well/exceedingly well.

Two if it hadn't come up in conversation, no one would have ever known. They didn't stand out either physically or in maturity.
One of those was a true scholar. English was, I think his third, or might have been fourth language. He did his degree in two years, gaining enough marks that you could have split his papers in half and both would have got a high first, and then chose to do a totally unrelated degree (kind of opposite end of the spectrum unrelated!) in his third year, which he also got a first on. All of that while appearing "normal" and doing lots of other things. Someone mentioned him a couple of years ago and he's been a professor for several years at that point.
The other had skipped a year at school and then moved countries and accidentally been put into the wrong year, so ended up two years above. He was average on the degree course, if I remember rightly. He did struggle when people were living out and ended up going back and living back in halls at his request, but I don't know why.

One did stand out. He was tiny, and only began he growth spurt when he was nearly 18. He also didn't really mix, although when he did, he seemed to enjoy it. He was very quiet at all times, and I don't think ever sought out doing things with others. I haven't googled him, but I wouldn't be surprised if one day he appears in the news with something amazing.
I seem to remember in one of the few conversations with him he mentioned that at least one university had told him they would only accept him after a gap year.

There may well have been others I didn't know about, but those were ones I did know! I don't think any of those three regretted it. I know the first two didn't, and I don't think the third did either.

I know you've said he isn't interested in the social side, but I do think you have to think about that. When I was at uni, there was very little checking of ID for example. But he could be in the position that if he is making friends then they're going off to things he can't go to, so it becomes self-fulfilling in its way.

I had a teacher at my secondary who went off to uni early. He told us that he thought it was great and everything was perfect when he went-but he really regretted it later. He realised that he had missed out, especially on the socialising, and he felt he'd have been better to have waited. What if those extra two years waiting means that your ds matures enough that actually the group projects will work better for him and he will want to socialise?

The other thing which I'm going to put out there is that a 16yo is in that state where they're not a child, but they're also not an adult. Let's say, as it's music, he joins an orchestra/band/music group. They're going to tour. They may not be happy (or risk assessed) to take a 16yo without supervision. How would he feel if he missed out on that sort of thing? Or you have to go with him in order for him to go?

And lastly, I don't know what they ask for to get into conservatoires. But I do know that most universities want something in terms of A-levels or equivalent. Yes, music exams (and dance) at the top end (which I assume he has) do get "points" but a distinction level 8 for music is only 30 points, which is the equivalent of about a C. They'll normally assume you're doing three subjects, and he may have more than 3 instrument/theory exams at that level, but, I don't know about for a music degree, but the persona I knew who used that was told she could only use one of her music exams towards the points. So you need to look into the requirements for the course.
I don't know about conservatoires, but I've looked at Birmingham, for the simple reason a friend's dc has that as his top choice, and they say:
"Students usually need two A-level passes (or equivalent) and Grade VIII Distinction in their instrument of choice".
Look at the ones he's interested in, and phone the admissions office and ask.

They're all things that you might want to look into and consider.

(New username as outing)

Hi OP, I went to conservatoire at 16 - was 15.5 when I auditioned and got my place. This was less than a decade ago and at one of the London ones, so I think fairly relevant to your child’s case.

Just as your DC, I was used to working at a much higher level than expected for my age, and coming from a smaller country that’s not renowned for its music education, I’d also reached the point where the choice was between moving abroad for uni at 16, or stop making progress on my instrument altogether. (My family couldn’t afford regular masterclasses or specialist lessons, so I had to find a country where education was either free or funded, and then had to secure substantial scholarships for all other costs.)

It was the best thing that could’ve ever happened to me. However, I was incredibly mature from a very young age, both academically and emotionally, so working so closely with other musicians at an equal or higher level than mine, and having to push myself constantly, was the exact challenge I’d been looking for.

I’m not saying there weren’t tough moments but I was (am) very much the type of person who doesn’t get overwhelmed by that pressure. To my knowledge, there is also no ND involved. Obviosuly if you know your child might not cope, then I’d avise to choose carefully. I wouldn’t recommend going for it unless they’re as close to 100% sure as possible about it.

I moved to the UK alone and lived in halls for the first year, then moved into a houseshare. I found my tribe of people who weren’t into partying or drinking but at the same time had plenty of exposure to normal uni “lifestyles”, had to learn how to relate to those who didn’t like / do the same things as me. Living at home may make this easier initially, but it wouldn’t necessarily be a good thing if it prevented them from actually being forced to learn how to be around different people.

I have to say, the experience was overwhelmingly positive for me and I went on to start very specialist training in a different country at a record-breaking age, which again went fine.

It’s true that having access to the best musical training from 16 is usually a good and much-needed step for exceptional people like your DC. BUT there came a point where I purposefully started to slow back down.

Gone are the days when getting a position with the Vienna Phil at 19 wasn’t much of an anomaly (rather an expected outcome for someone with the right talent). I’m using performance as that’s my specialism but it’s true in all areas.

I’ve had to “stagnate” industry-wise for a few years after completing most of my training, as I was too young to join the profession on a full-time basis (at least at the extremely high level I’ve trained at). 20-22 yos won’t make as many connections, they rarely pass their trial periods anymore. They don’t fit in as much as expected, and I say this as someone who’s always moved in social circles 5-10 years ahead of my own age, so I’m very comfortable with those environments. But it’s incredibly hard to be trusted, accepted and recognised when your age stops being a novelty factor. Between a 22 yo who’s already finished two masters and a 25 yo who barely started their first, they are going to go with the person they deem has more life experience and accrued maturity rather than the biggest raw talent, most of the time. Being so talented at 15-16 is impressive. Give it another decade and everyone has caught up.

Do I regret starting so early? Absolutely not. I just wish someone had warned me that it wouldn’t get me to the end goal any faster - I’m getting there at the same time as other people my age, which is fine but that fact came as quite a shock to me after “rushing my way through life” (even though it was exactly what I needed back then).