Oxbridge 2024 Entry Part 5

[YouOKHun]

Good Luck everyone whatever the outcome!

And when I said Westminster advocate a "two-year approach" to applying to universities, I was talking across the board, not just for O & C. They definitely encourage it for med student applicants for example, regardless of whether they're applying for Oxbridge.

It's normal to consider any med school application a two-year process. Not just at Westminster.

@SymmetricalSpinnaker I think it may somewhat depend on your definition of 'normal', no?

But my point was, it's an approach Westminster advocates across the board and which their cohort is more able to do for socio-economic reasons than the majority of students elsewhere.

It often takes two years to secure a single offer. A high number who don't get a place first time round work for a year as a HCA or similar and reapply with a stronger application. I'm not suggesting they all go off to South America to find themselves!

I think what @SymmetricalSpinnaker means is that it’s normal because it’s a very likely outcome for many applicants and so has become “normalised” as an approach. It was referred to at all the university open days my DD went to, and on the many many free webinars run by organisations to support med school applications. At least half of med students we spoke to on open events had been re-applicants - one lovely woman we met had reapplied twice and worked as a HCA for 2 years to fund it. My DD is fully prepared to be ready to do the same if unsuccessful first time round - they all are

I heard Tiffin Boys got 41 offers this year.

Thanks @Sybill for explaining, I didn't realised it was normalised to that level these days. I do know though that Westminster has been advocating that for at least 6 years, before it was the norm, and for a range of subjects.

I brought up medicine as an example that isn't oxbridge-specific.

But speaking about medicine and your example, given they are "all" prepared to take a year out and re-apply for medicine, I wonder if some for whom living another year at home would be very difficult are self-selecting out and not reapplying for medicine. Thought times.

It’s definitely interesting. DD was offered a place at Westminster School for sixth form (not the Harris one) and whilst shortlisted for Queen’s scholar didn’t get it so we couldn’t afford the full fees. She stayed at her grammsr that sends typically 5 to 12 a year to Oxbridge and she was one of them. I like to think she would have got a place regardless of where she had gone / stayed but know it isn’t as simple as that,

I do remember also a time she wanted to study a subject that wasn’t available at Oxbridge that changed as subjects got more challenging from Y9 and whislt DD ended up at a Cambridge college and is thriving there, know it isn’t for everyone and isn’t the measure of success for all schools or young people.

^ The QS/KS places for girls for Westminster 6th form reduces the fees to a standard day rate but allows a girl pupil to board at that rate though? Unless you are referring to a bursary on top? The fees a QS/KS scholar for boys at 13+ entry has been paying is considerably less than the rate 6th form girls are expected to pay (which I know is being addressed over the coming years) but there has been a disparity for quite some time. I agree bursaries are not as prolific as Eton.

One thing puzzling me is why Westminster has such a high Oxbridge offer rate. Is it due to a large number of reapplicants or a significant intake of international 6th formers? As far as I know, for this cohort, Westminster's GCSE performance was not particularly impressive, even inferior compared to other schools. Westminster had fewer than 30 students achieving 11 grade 9s in the GCSE, whereas St Paul's had 46. However, St Paul's Oxbridge offers may be much lower than 96.

Westminister sixth form is Coed with 80 external intake, majority of whom are NOT international students. 11 top grade GCSEs has no indication of Oxbridge offers, esp the grades are in the Covid years..

Agree that looking at 11 x GCSE 9s is far too crude. Many of those getting Oxbridge offers will have done the standard 9 GCSEs or perhaps 10. Lots getting offers will have excellent GCSE profiles, but for a large number, the odd 8 or even 7 will be present. GCSEs are of course a very certain type of test. Some schools can train those who are malleabke but not super bright to get the top grades. Sometimes those who are the types Oxbridge want with a genuine academic curiosity and willingness to engage and think outside of the obvious (GCSE?) box aren’t actually those who get all 9s or are perhaos those with a major strength in one particular area of the curriculum and not across every subject.

Something like CAT4 our Midyis or Alis test results which schools use to baseline pupils, and measure ability not exam passing skills or hoop jumping, but are rarely shared with parents might be a better indicator of success.

Schools admitting students for 6th form often use these tests as part of the admissions process. They can select not just those who will get fantastic GCSEs but who have a lot of natural intelligence too. Of course, at the margins,there are a lot of excellent candidates who don’t quite make it to Oxbridge. Maybe these schools which are so successful have the magic combination of the kids who are naturally very very bright and that this, along with expert preparation hinted over years of prepping students for admissions tests has allowed them to sit the admissions exams and get the scores that allow them to enter their Oxbridge interviews already at the very top of the ranking order, which okays a big role in finally getting an offer, when it’s nit just interviews that determine outcomes. Yes, useful interview prep by the schools will help, but we are also talking about these students being extremely bright and having the kind of minds that Oxbridge are looking for. It all comes together to create a winning formula.

I’m just guessing.what woukd be interesting to know is how many if the successful are newly admitted into the sixth forms of schools which send many. I suspect it’s quite a lot. If you like, these students have already gone through the selection process .l.just to get into the 6th form. Success in that gives a pretty good chance of success for an Oxbridge too, although there can be no guarantees. Even amongst these clever young people, some are turned down and it’s sometimes the ones people imagined to be dead certs.

I went to Westminster, albeit a very long time ago, and a huge number of people in my year went to Oxbridge including me. the girls are chosen age 15 and 16 when you can have a very good idea of who is Oxbridge material – in the way you can’t, when someone is 11. There’s an entrance exam and interview in each subject you’re taking at A level to get in and my recollection is the interview was just like an Oxbridge interview.

As someone said, most girls were from school that already sent a good number to Oxbridge The school didn’t rate O-levels, as they were then, highly, most of the boys in my year had unimpressive results, because the school isn’t interested in teaching to the test. I know lots of London private schools now are thinking of dropping GCSE altogether and being too limiting in scope and I wouldn’t be surprised if Westminster announces it will soon ….

The teaching at sixth form level was superb, it really went beyond the syllabus in breath and depth and was superior to the already academic school I was at before. When I got to Oxbridge, I found the work very easy for the first year at least. I definitely had a massive advantage over my peers. I definitely think I had more academic stimulation at Westminster than at Oxbridge.

Having said all that, I have no desire to send my dc to Westminster and nor did any of my friends- indeed, when I went to a reunion a few years ago, I can’t think of anyone who had children there – they part of that would be because we couldn’t afford it ! iMy reasoning was it I s a tough environment socially and left many quite bruised. It may be more cuddly now.

i’m amazed that they’re still getting so many students in though ….

I wonder if the same level of state vs. private scrutiny is applied to the inevitably wealthy international students who now dominate the high street in Oxford? Elite universities want to broaden access - but they don’t seem to have a problem waving in rich kids from China in particular for STEM subjects - and let’s face it - they will be very rich, rich kids - according to this FOI eg for engineering - there were 41 offers to Chinese students in 2022

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/oxford_undergraduate_chinese_app_2/response/2038986/attach/4/04%20568%20Data%20sent.xlsx?cookie_passthrough=1

out of total for engineering of ~200, so a fifth of the total. Of course they are highly able and doubtless have worked hard and had boat loads of high quality tutoring - because their parents could afford to pay for all of that - and of course they pay full fees … They may be ‘better’ than the rejected UK candidates - but there will have been UK candidates who could have taken that place - it’s the same story for all of the STEM subjects (final tab) - how does this make any sense for the UK economy, for the UK politically or to fulfil the intention of widenIng access?

Regarding Westminster - a few points. There were 900+applicants for the 6th form intake my DC was recently in. The admission process is incredibly competitive and rigorous and includes it is Oxbridge-style interviews and exams in every subject. A lot of the 80 places are taken by girls, but some are not, but they all do have to be very bright. Some of the girls (and boys) are from the selective London day schools and from other boarding schools so this may well explain why the numbers for Westminster compared favourably to other schools. Yes, because it is in the only year they are accepted, some are overseas students but these are a very low % of the intake especially as it is quiet at the weekend. There is no ‘secret sauce’ but there is very little staff turn and the staff do have immense experience in the subject they teach. I compare this to the school DC attended previously where staff turn was an issue. This expertise is also shared with the Harris sixth form - where pupils join the school for certain subject teaching. All pupils have to do 4 A levels without much exception, and none of the subjects are taught to ‘pass the test’ a lot of work is done expanding the subject. All students are expected to independently study and work out for themselves what they need to do before the next lesson etc. This style of teaching may well suit Oxbridge candidates.
Pretty much the whole of the year group applies to Oxbridge or the US (rarely both) so it is a numbers game and students from y14 on a gap or reapplication year are also supported so yes some of those numbers will include reapplicants. You also have to remember the school is open for education on Saturday also - it is not a morning for sports. It is also a rowing school which helps with US applications and may be somewhat attractive to some Oxbridge colleges. There are also a lot of US places gained for early acceptance. Some of the scores for the Oxford admissions tests are the highest possible, so regardless of whether or not someone has 11 GCSEs at 9, a PAT score of 9 is unbelievably impressive regardless of what school they attended so an institution would almost certainly want them. The school is very full on. That said, they do seem to select the students initially that can cope with the workload well, which may be another factor. I’d also add that Pastoral care is front and centre and also excellent.

This continues to be an interesting discussion that relates to a topic DH and I have agreed not to discuss in the interests of marital harmony! I went to a selective state grammar that was very academic at the time and DD would have thrived there or in the environment described at Westminster. It's not an option where we live: there are no academic schools within a reasonable distance, state or private.

DH however is ideologically opposed to academically selective education, thinking that any teacher worth their salt should be able to teach a range of abilities. He works in education, specialising in ALN and those for whom the standard system didn't work out. This was his background, and he feels strongly that no child should feel stupid or to have failed because they failed a test at 11 or 12. It somehow passes him by that this is a different form of selective education.

DD is in favour of selective schools. She feels (and I agree) that there is otherwise a lot of help for those who struggle (good) but the more able are held back, especially where numbers are too small to stream classes. It's frustrating: I am otherwise pretty egalitarian in outlook but I don't think it serves DC of any flavour well. I'm interested to hear any pros and cons of systems outside the UK if anyone has experience to share.

Sorry, realise I'm digressing from Oxbridge specific matters. Am content to be ignored, just musing while waiting in the car.

We got 12 in this year. From our v run down (if you saw Panorama you saw our school), lots of FSM school. How ? Well we use the outreach from the colleges to get the students any help they need. We take the students who might be keen on visits from year 8, so they can see it's possible for them (we now have ex students showing us round which really helps).
But many students don't want to go there, whereas I'd imagine at Westminster they do. Be interesting to see it as a % of applicants vs offers. Ours was 75% this year, which is good even for us 😊.

@TenSheds I'm with your DH. I hate selection at 10/11. (Which is heavily influenced by tutoring and therefore cash). Better to maybe do it at 14 (if at all !).
I say this as the mum of comp kids, being a comp kid and now being a comp teacher. Comps work if they have enough staff (which they currently do not due to lack of funds !).

There seems to be two very different schools being muddled up here! Westminster is an exclusive and expensive private school. Harris Westminster is an inner London state selective (hot-house) sixth form which creams off some of the most able students from London state secondary schools. ( like a grammar school but at sixth form level).

What posts do you think are muddling up the two?

They are two different schools but they are of course also linked. Harris Westminster - which is just a sixth form - was formed by a partnership between the Harris Federation and Westminster School the public school. A handful of A Level subjects at Harris Westminster are taught at Westminster School.

I wonder what makes the big difference the Westminster Oxbridge offers with last year's 55 and this year's 96. Is it because of many gap year applicants (70)?

@Uni2024 this year’s cohort has been described as ‘exceptional’. Plus, I think I’m right in saying last year a number of students at all schools missed their offers as this was the pupils first time sitting public examinations without advance knowledge of the exam content? Might also have a bearing.

@mushroom3 i don’t think anyone is muddling the two, but they schools are inextricably linked. I don’t think that the number of offers for subjects like History of Art and Classics would have been possible without the access to the extensive Westminster school resources.

Wrt to Harris, I think it is interesting to note that keeping the same hours as the school must have some influence on the result. I know from my DC’s experience at a previous highly selective London day school that it would not have been possible to stay in the library until 6.30pm or have access to the same on a Saturday either. It is the same principle as Brampton Manor in Newham which is another state sixth form success story and which also open early/late to facilitate learning access for their students. Not everyone has equality in terms of study space and access to books at home and this certainly levels the playing field IMO. Sadly as easy as this would be to implement in every school, I doubt you would get much support.

@Tedlassosjumper most schools couldn't afford to stay open longer. Our heating goes off at 3.30pm when the students leave. Staff just put coats on. But it gets COLD v v fast.

It wasn't 55 last year. It was 65 this high was a little lower than the low 70s average. I had assumed that very unusually high Oxford number this year was extra reapplicants from the previous year but rumour has it that it was a typical circa 25%. Data in this sort of detail isn't formally released though. I think it is just a very strong year, probably especially in humanities.

It isn't madly surprising that W does well - it is very very selective and brings in about 90 pupils at sixth form who are by definition performing at the highest level, quite apart from the children already there. There are a significant number of bursary pupils in the sixth form intake. The school invests a lot of effort in its widening access programme eg running Saturday programmes from year 5 to try to help pupils reach the standard to apply for bursary places at year 7