Good universities for "average" achievers?

[CornishGem1975]

The message I seem to see time and time again is if it's not RG, it's not worth it. Right now RG is probably not an option for my DC, so we're looking for 'good' universities that will offer BBB for instance, rather than A's.

Been doing lots of research but it seems pretty subjective so wondering if anyone has any particular insights or experience. Does anyone have any recommendations? (For psychology if it helps).

Aren’t some companies now introducing ‘blind’ hiring techniques?

@CornishGem1975
Anyone who says that a non-RG degree is not worth it is talking tosh (bluntly! IMO).
Tell that to Bath, St. Andrews, Loughborough and Lancaster graduates (non-RG in the Top 10 (CUG general list)).
Tel that to Prince William! (St. Andrews).
Tell that to all the non-RG graduates who got into the career they wanted (a lot where a degree is a pre-requisite) and are earning good money (more than they would without a degree).
FYI, there are 23 of the 24 RG in the top 30 (CUG), and one at 53.

Fair enough, there will be a few professions that want or prefer RG, but they are obviously missing out (4 mentioned above). They are probably more meaning that they prefer 'top' unis rather than bottom 30%, for example.

Flip it round the other way, would anyone only consider the one RG they had grades for, rather than the 10 non-RG they also had grades for - no.

In this scenario, you are looking for Unis (regardless of 'group') that BBB will get in to.

@TizerorFizz Please can you link to the report.
It's a self fulfilling prophecy that RG give a better salary outcome - they fill 23 of the 30.
If Bolton (no disrespect to them) went into the RG they wouldn't become good!
RG formed in 1994, their Unis were good before that!

@stubiff I’m useless at links but the attached is the report. It is looking at outcomes beyond graduation snd was well
publicised at the time. It’s almost inevitable that grads from some RG unis will earn more. World renown unis do boost earnings snd that’s why they are sought after!

We ALL know there are RG plus some more elite unis. If you read what I’ve said, I’ve always acknowledged this. However for a BBB candidate these are out of reach. Some RG actually won’t be. The Post92 group is varied and many non RG that I’ve mentioned, and other posters too, are well within reach.

NO employer just looks for RG! Why would anyone exclude St Andrews or Bath etc. it’s ridiculous to suggest this happens. However some employers won’t be looking for employees with CCD at A level and have been to uni of Blog. They simply put in selection tests that find higher qualified candidates and employers don’t trust all degrees either. They are not all equal. This is why higher earnings do follow the higher tariff unis. It’s inevitable because, as mn shows, the appetite for elite unis is very very strong amongst those who want a good graduate job.

Aaah!! Attachment here!

Surrey is a really underrated uni.
Lancaster is lovely.
Northumbria is a surprisingly wealthy uni in a lively town
Kingston uni is very strong for several subjects
Oxford Brookes too.

@CornishGem1975 my dd went to a grammar school that was (annoyingly) RG focused. She had a number of friends who were predicted around the BBB (and lower) level and they all ended up going to Liverpool Uni (one or two to do Psychology I think). So that's one your dc could consider if they're keen to try for an RG. I suspect they may get better teaching and support outside of the RG unis though (I work at one and dd is at another - both have poor student satisfaction ratings, and dd hasn't had any support even when it was needed). We went to the Leicester uni open day (and I went there 30 years ago) and really liked it too.

I really think OP should not think about RG v non-RG.
"We ALL know there are RG plus some more elite unis." - I'm not sure everyone does, at least first time round.

What OP is after, is any Uni based on BBB.

Surrey is a good example. Top 20 Uni. Non-RG (but that really doesn't matter).
ABB for Psychology, so could be an aspirational choice.

School should be advising on the number of aspirational choices.
Others are correct by saying that it is hard to get an offer for ABB course, if predicted is BBB (why would the Uni unless they are really struggling for numbers).
https://www.savethestudent.org/freshers/which-universities-are-easiest-to-get-into.html Surrey is at 62% acceptance rate (all subjects).

It's like people mentioning Lancaster.
Yes, great non-RG Uni.
Psychology is AAB, so out of reach.

But, there will probably be RG Unis with the same tariff.

@stubiff If you scroll back Surrey has been mentioned a lot. I know a mature student who did Psychology at Liverpool and found she was well supported. However don’t be persuaded by “good” teaching accolades. It can be skewed very much by students who need a lot of help and don’t perceive they get it. Some Dc clearly end up in unis that don’t suit them and often some of our best unis don’t get great satisfaction scores from students. The vast majority are happy enough though but in COVID times surveys were questionable. It’s a self selecting survey too.

I think most people (and schools) do know St Andrews is elite! Where I think there’s a bigger issue, and it’s all about aiming high and widening social participation/levelling up, is where Dc are persuaded low tariff has the same outcomes as high tariff. Being persuaded that a 80 ranked uni is the same as top 20 is clearly not right for some students. Not all top 20 is RG obviously but, people for whom widening participation will bring huge dividends, it pays to start somewhere! This is why schools use this benchmark. No school would object to St Andrews or Bath!

As so many thousands do psychology at uni, there is good reason to think about work afterwards. To be a psychologist a lot of further study is needed. Most don’t do it. Most don’t do a masters in anything. So what else do they do? What courses best prepare you for alternative work? On MN, most dc have enough spark to be successful. Huge numbers do masters. In real life it’s clearly not like that for grads. DD1 knows few with masters. Many more have gone into professions or just jobs. Many also go into poorly paid jobs anyone could do. They work their way up though.

If there’s a strong desire to avoid poor pay, and with stagnant grad pay it’s difficult, it makes sense to choose a uni and course carefully but recognise employers won’t care about every module and what extra help you needed. Self starters are usually what employers really like with work experience. Always aim as high as possible but of course for a BBB student, choice is less but still wide.

I think St Andrews is in the Durham/Edinburgh league when it comes to making offers!!

As so many thousands do psychology at uni, there is good reason to think about work afterwards. To be a psychologist a lot of further study is needed.

A psychology degree still has value for those who don't want to be psychologists though.. much as not many history grads want to become historians or philosophy grads philosophers. There is value in higher education beyond vocational courses. Psychology degrees teach loads of really valuable skills.

@TizerorFizz . RG is not just marketing as it includes Oxbridge, LSE and Imperial who recruit the best and are world renown. Queen Mary and a few others might be lower tariff.
Your reasoning is all wrong. RG IS predominantly a marketing exercise. The fact that some top unis as you have mentioned are RG along with other more random lower unis is evidence of this. If it was really about excellence the lower ranking unis you mention wouldn't be part of RG now would they.

We also can't pretend that all the RG unis are better than some non RG unis. St Andrews, Bath and Loughborough are above most RG unis. You seem to be arguing things that go against your own opinion.

Oh good lord your 'facts' are so random. We are woefully short of psychologists in the country

Saying we don't need psychologists and therefore people should think twice about doing a psychology degree is like saying that people should think twice about studying history because we don't need many historians. It doesn't make sense.

@Hughs There are limited training places for psychologists. To make it abundantly clear: we have way more psychology grads then we have training places. We clearly don’t need all the grads we produce for the training available. The BPS has looked at this and recognises psychology grads do lots of other things.

I do think doing management or business would be a reasonable alternative if that’s the area of work a student aspires too. It also makes absolute sense not to study history at a lower tariff uni if you want a business management job. These unis are far better placed with employers to offer work experienced and contacts with business partners. They don’t have them for history. You could argue we don’t need thousands and thousands of history grads either and many get low paid work from low tariff unis.

@drowningfrowning I never ever said the RG PLUS unis were not better then some RG. Fashions in unis change too. It still remains that many RG are top class and so are some others. What is important is that students realise the differences and choose wisely because the vast majority of psychology grads won’t be psychologists! Fact. So what else you might do matters - a lot.

Yes I understand that lots of people do a psychology degree and don't become psychologists, but my point is, so what? You might just as well say we don't "need" historians or philosophers or English graduates. The value of the degree is not just related to the career with the same name.

@TizerorFizz
yes,I saw that Surrey was mentioned. Am I not allowed to repeat it, as others have.

@CornishGem1975 has not said that they have gone through every RG looking at whether any are close to BBB.
Surrey is, and is ranked higher than a number of RG, so there is a chance that some RG have the same tariff, as an aspirational choice.
I was trying to get across to OP that it shouldn’t be a query about RG vs non-RG, but a list of Unis around BBB tariff.
If the op was worded differently we would be having a slightly different conv.

Re the motives, let’s give the op the benefit of the doubt until we know otherwise, and assume that DC wants to be a Psychologist.

@stubiff Of course you can! It just came across (to me) that I didn’t value or acknowledge it’s existence. I do.

@Hughes
Unfortunately (?) fewer and fewer people do think English, for example, is worth it. Applicants are dropping. It’s fairly well publicised that some degrees are falling out of favour. I’m not saying degrees don’t give grads skills but any casual glance at stats tells you some degrees don’t lead to as many grad level jobs as others. Often grads simply get jobs non grads could do. So an expensive and not entirely productive 3/4 years. So when parents and the government (us) have to pay our zillions for them, it’s surely right to question whether all degrees are worth it, or not. Eventually students vote with their feet and prefer other degrees or apprenticeships. We need to get far more of them rolled out.

When so few psychology grads become psychologists, you could argue the students are being duped upon entry. Do those doing a medicine degree fail to be doctors in such huge numbers? Of course not. There would be an outcry if that happened. I think numbers should be much more tightly controlled. It’s similar to my DD training to be a barrister. Around 1/4 get pupilage after the course. No loan either. It’s selling a dream but it’s an expensive one. Considering degree and work alternatives are therefore vital in my view and should be contemplated before Dc start on the courses or disappointment is highly likely.

Often grads simply get jobs non grads could do. So an expensive and not entirely productive 3/4 years. So when parents and the government (us) have to pay our zillions for them, it’s surely right to question whether all degrees are worth it, or not.

You don't have to want to do a graduate job though to make your degree worthwhile. My DC is an E&M grad from Oxford but is doing a patient facing Band 2 role in the health service. It uses very different but equally valid skills to the future PM / Chancellor who has hopped into a role at the Taxpayer's Alliance and is probably far more beneficial to society.

When so few psychology grads become psychologists, you could argue the students are being duped upon entry.

I really don't think that offering a degree in a subject is duping people, just because one very narrow postgrad career option is competitive. There are lots of careers broadly within psychology but not clinical, like counselling / other forms of therapy, roles in mental health, SEN education, addiction, forensic work, research, academia, mediation, teaching, journalism.

Not to mention that there are thousands of postgrad opportunities for graduates where the degree subject isn't specified. The comparison with medicine is weird - that is a vocational degree. People do it because they want to be doctors. People do psychology with a huge range of options and ambitions in mind for later on.

@Hughs Time and time again applicants see psychology as vocational. Why bother to check any accreditations then? The BPS one is vital and is always mentioned on mn. It’s fairer to split courses into vocational with placements and non vocational in my view. Clarity is always better than obscure promises and careers hidden away somewhere difficult to find.

Re the motives, let’s give the op the benefit of the doubt until we know otherwise, and assume that DC wants to be a Psychologist.

My DC does indeed (at this moment) want to aim to be a Clinical Psychologist. Of course, that may change with time but at the moment that is the goal @TizerorFizz

And that’s great but choose wisely as that goal is highly competitive and I would try and check how many Dc achieve this from her chosen courses.

My dd did Psychology (currently year 2) because she knew she wanted to work in mental health, but wasn’t really sure in what capacity. She was open to clinical or educational psychology. She’s probably going to go down the OT route now, but I don’t think she should have done an OT degree when she was so unsure at 17. She enjoyed History but it wouldn’t have been a relevant degree to allow her to go on to do the OT masters, hence why she took Psychology.

A friend on her course wants to work with domestic abuse victims. She’s now thinking maybe as a lawyer, but again at 17/ 18 she wasn’t sure so wanted to keep her options open. It’s fairly common to not really know what you want to do at 17-18 so you do an academic degree to keep the options open.

i agree that for some careers, eg accountancy, you don’t actually need a degree so why waste money. But dd knew she’d need a degree to do any of the things she was interested in.