Can someone explain why grade boundaries change

[Ceci03]

I'm still struggling to understand. Oning from Rep of Ireland where an A is always 85-100 and a B is always 70-84 I'm struggling to understand why the boundaries change for A level. And it seems for GCSE as well? Like how does a student know how they're doing when the boundaries are so fluid. I dont understand. Thanks !

Say a maths paper had the question "Matt had 3 apples and gave one to Lucy. How many apples did he have left?" and another maths paper had the question "Matt had 7 apples and gave one to Lucy and two to Mark. How many apples did he have left?" Clearly, the second question is harder. But there are only so many ways you can ask a subtraction question in sentence form. So it might be that in the first year, 150/200 got the question right, but in the second year only 80/200 got the question right. Given that huge numbers of children take the exam each year, it's unlikely that any one year's students are going to be massively less able than another. So that tells you that the second question must be harder. The grade boundaries would be adjusted to keep similar proportions of students with each grade.

And yet I've just been reading on gov.Uk that there "are no quotas".

Yes this is how I was taught. So my dd went down 2 grades in all three subjects. There were no circumstances to explain this. So I'm starting to think it was the teachers who did not prepare her adequately and did not mark the past papers and mocks with pre COVID marking schemes . I mean she got her papers back and read them and she and her teachers thought they deserved higher marks. To me there is a disconnect there

Does anyone know when the decision was taken to revert to pre COVID marking. School are saying it was only announced in the summer so they had no clue.

Announced in England in September 2022:

I can confirm that, in 2023, we will return to pre-pandemic grading as the next step in getting back to normal.

Maybe NI was different though?

www.gov.uk/government/speeches/grading-exams-and-assessments-in-summer-2023-and-autumn-2022

But it’s not a quota, it’s recognising that the spread of ability and attainment is pretty much the same every year

I don’t see why you are blaming your daughter’s teachers either. Most kids who don’t achieve well in exams, they either don’t study enough or have a bad day. It happens. Telling her it’s someone else’s fault is not that helpful.

I don’t see why you are blaming your daughter’s teachers either. Most kids who don’t achieve well in exams, they either don’t study enough or have a bad day. It happens. Telling her it’s someone else’s fault is not that helpful.

I think it's fair enough to blame the teachers if they haven't taken into account the return to pre covid grades, if they blamed grade boundaries, and if they have admitted that they would have marked the paper wrongly, as the OP says these have.

This thread is liking talking to a brick wall

There are no fucking quotas. How about actually reading some of the very helpful posts that explain how grade boundaries are determined. It is perfectly reasonable to assume there is the same distribution of A/B/C students

You can't use a random mark scheme to mark a paper. It would simply be wrong. A mark scheme has the answers to the paper.

Perhaps the teachers were poor at interpreting mark schemes. But presumably your Dd has looked at the mark schemes herself and has done her own research. You can't expect teachers to give everything on a platter to an A level student. I don't think its helpful to you to continue to look for someone to blame rather than just accepting your Dds results

I mean she got her papers back and read them and she and her teachers thought they deserved higher marks. To me there is a disconnect there

Yes..if the teachers can't see where she lost marks even with the paper back then they are either trying to soften the blow or genuinely don't know how to get students through exams...especially with high grades.

Knowledge on exams is very well documented. All teachers know from reading the exam specification that e.g section B carries the most marks so spend your time there..use techniques like point, evidence explain (probadly out of date on this) but an example of techniques.. In your daughters case the teachers seemed to not take on board what examiners are looking for, to demostrate knowledge, hence the mismatch between her marks throughput the year and actual exams.

As an example- If they were driving instructors they would be ignoring the need to indicate before turning and then wondering why their students kept failing tests. They should have looked at your daughters paper and say - right she got 5 marks out of 20 on that question what was missing? Then refer to exam spec to check and try to do better for other students.

But presumably your Dd has looked at the mark schemes herself and has done her own research

Does your daughter talk about the mark scheme? I can't see how she prepared for exams without this,doing past papers and using model answers.

How did the other students in her year do?

Are you actually in England now @Ceci03 ? It’s not super clear, sorry.

I’m asking bc a lot of the education knowledge on this site relates to England (mine does!).

What subjects did she take? Are they subjects with more subjectivity in marking (for want if a better word) like Eng lit rather than say, maths or German?

Tho even then. A to a C is a big drop. Sounds as tho the teachers are at fault in their exam understanding, and maybe your dd had a mare on the day, anxiety, illness?

Yes she did. She did loads of papers and her tutor corrected them according to the mark scheme. When she got her scripts back her tutors looked over them this was English and she said in her view it should be an A or possibly a high B.

Ha ha this college was as far from giving students things on a platter as you can imagine! They hardly marked anything for a start. Only mocks and coursework. There were absences and cancelled classes every week it seemed. One teacher was away for nearly a term and no provision until I wrote in and complained and then one teacher took both psych classes. That's why I got her grinds. So yeah she did a lot on her own. It's prob classed as a disadvantaged college. I know some students got special advantages to get into uni but my dd didn't qualify as I have a degree so she's not 1st generation . I hope I have that right

Head of A level def lying to me then cos he specifically told me the teachers didn't know that the grade boundaries or marking scheme was reverting to pre covid. He said they had no clue so did the best estimate
They could. I mean the coursework was moderated Dds included and confirmed so they obvs got that right

Anyway everyone on here thinks it works great and is a fair system.

I guess dd is just not as good as she thought she was or what she was told she was.

Hard to swallow esp when there was no upset on the day or nerves or panic or sickness or anything like that. She is a C/D student not A/B so that's just that. Hopefully she will be happy with her grades in uni.

I think some of the language is getting confused. Like what is a quota if not keeping the % of grades similar year on year. Like everyone is saying a similar proportion will get As etc and adjusting the boundaries enables this?

Maybe I'm just a thicko though. Am
Not using the correct terminology

OP - I reckon just let her crack on with uni now. She obviously did well enough. If she is disappointed it will make it difficult for her if you are always going on about who is to blame.

It is what it is now and I am sure in your eyes you love her just as much no matter what type of student she is.

If she's got into Uni doing a course she's happy with then the A levels have done their work. Don't label her academic abilities by grade. Uni work is different, even those with good a levels can find it hard to adjust. Just see how she gets on and encourage her to be a proactive and independent learner.

The marking/grading system is fair. Your DD has been let down by her teachers, or lack of teachers. The shift back to pre covid levels is a red herring, that wouldn't account for such a big drop.

They hardly marked anything for a start. Only mocks and coursework. There were absences and cancelled classes every week it seemed. One teacher was away for nearly a term and no provision until I wrote in and complained and then one teacher took both psych classes

Do you not think that this is more likely the reason your DD didn’t get good grades, rather than grade boundaries changing?

If your DD got Cs and Ds, no amount of grade boundary moderation would have given her As. You are focusing on the wrong target. Perhaps she could have done better in a sixth form where she was being taught properly. She could always resit?

"Exam boards endeavour to set papers at a consistent level of difficulty year on year, but it is impossible to do this precisely. Therefore, when the papers for a subject have been marked, a group of experts meets to decide how to convert the marks to grades. The experts look at marked papers from the current and previous years, then they decide what the minimum mark for each grade should be. If this year's papers are found to be slightly harder than last year's, then this year's grade boundaries will be slightly lower than last year's. Similarly, if this year's papers are found to be slightly easier, the grade boundaries will be slightly higher.

Thus, each year's grades represent the same level of performance. The process follows national guidelines and uses statistical analysis to assist the groups of experts in making their judgements.

The object of the exercise is to be fair to all students and ensure that standards are maintained. In this way, employers and higher education institutions can be assured of the consistent quality of applicants, as indicated by their qualifications." https://www.aqa.org.uk/exams-administration/results-days/grade-boundaries/standards/standards-over-time

Yeh just to say I haven't mentioned anything about her results since results day. I never mention it. I'm not an idiot.

When she got her scripts back her tutors looked over them this was English and she said in her view it should be an A or possibly a high B

If the orginial examiner and reviewer didn't change the marks then the teacher is wrong/out of date and arrogant to not consider her knowledge is out of date.

I'm sorry your dd was let down by her teachers, it does happen. Thankfully she is at Uni where she can have a fresh start.
Some teachers deliberately mark mocks harshly so that students feel they have to work harder...possibly the better way to be rather than inflate grades and have disappointment on results day.