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Higher education

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Original poster

Can someone explain why grade boundaries change

121 replies

Ceci03 · 09/10/2023 15:39

I'm still struggling to understand. Oning from Rep of Ireland where an A is always 85-100 and a B is always 70-84 I'm struggling to understand why the boundaries change for A level. And it seems for GCSE as well? Like how does a student know how they're doing when the boundaries are so fluid. I dont understand. Thanks !

OP posts:
Original poster
Ceci03 · 10/10/2023 09:44

So she still doesn't know how she could
Have gotten a higher mark. She is very very nervous in uni as she had thought she was an A student but she's a C and D student so wonders should she even be at uni. And will she come out with a pass degree as that seems to be where she is within her peer group.

OP posts:
Snittler · 10/10/2023 09:48

Ceci03 · 09/10/2023 18:31

Thanks @Octavia64 however does this not make it even more unfair in that how can grades across years be compared as you're saying that what might be an A one year wouldn't be a B another year so I'm still confused. If an employer say has 2 candidates and 1 sat A levels in 2020 and got AAA and the other one sat them in 2023 and got BBB but yet if you looked at the breakdown they both received the same mark. I dont see how that is fair. It seems incredibly opaque and difficult to understand to me but I realize I may still not be getting it!

Because if one year, the English exam is “recite the alphabet”, all students will likely get 99%. So to get the A* you need to have got it precisely right and with the
little poem at the end to differentiate you from other candidates. It wouldn’t be fair to get an A if you couldn’t recite the alphabet, as it’s a pretty basic requirement.

The next year the exam is to analyse imagery in Hamlet. Well that’s much harder, and even if you get half
marks you’re probably an exceptional student so deserve the top grade. But those who only got half the alphabet right failed their exam…

This is obviously an extreme example, but it’s impossible to set exams of exactly the same difficulty each year. It’s much more sensible to say we expect the top 10% of students each year to get the top grade and to move the boundaries accordingly.

clary · 10/10/2023 09:53

Hey @Ceci03 I think it's unfortunate that no one made your DD aware that 2020, 2021 and 2022 were unusual years. In 2020 and 2021 grades were awarded through teacher/centre assessment, so I am not sure there is a full suite of past papers and grade boundaries anyway for those years.

Yes, there is a full set of past papers and grade boundaries for 2022 - but again, there was consideration of the issues that cohort (which is not your DD, sorry) had had to deal with. This is not a secret and her tutor should have been aware of this.

But even then... I have just checked out AQA geography, a pretty popular subject with a large cohort. In 2022 166 gained you a B. In 2023 the mark for a B was 177. So not really that different. If your DD was (say) aiming for a B and so went in with the idea that she needed to score 166 - firstly that is a poorly advised candidate - you need to do your very best - and secondly 166 would have gained a C this year, so only a grade below.

In the same exam an A in 2022 was 198 marks; you say she was working at this level. Well in 2023 an A was 210 - again, not a huge difference. As explained, the difference in these two years (which is probs more than normal) was to account for the experience of the 2022 cohort in relation to Covid and missing a lot of learning - which would not apply in a similar was to the 2023 cohort.

Original poster
Ceci03 · 10/10/2023 09:56

People get surprise low grades all the time. Some people don't perform as well under exam conditions, some people panic, some teachers set unrealistic expectations of what students can achieve, sometimes that paper just didn't suit that students knowledge, students can misinterpret markschemes and think they are performing better than they are.

But the thing is none of these things happened. She got back the papers and thought she done well. Her teachers and grinds thought she answered well to their mind. Thing is she did what she'd been told would get her an A but it wasn't good enough this year. Does anyone understand that.

OP posts:
clary · 10/10/2023 09:57

Did you send the papers for review?

By the way is anyone else longing to know what a "grind" is? I've never heard that word used in this context.

fedupandstuck · 10/10/2023 09:59

@Ceci03 just out of interest, what on earth is a "grind"?

Your DD sounds like she has been massively let down by her teachers not realistically marking her mock exams. And by talking to her about grade boundaries in a way that upset her and made her less confident about her academic abilities.

Grades can improve with hard work and effective study techniques. She isn't doomed to get a Pass degree and be forever stamped as a C/D grade student. She can look at her feedback from her Uni tutors and work hard to improve based on that.

Original poster
Ceci03 · 10/10/2023 10:00

clary · 10/10/2023 09:53

Hey @Ceci03 I think it's unfortunate that no one made your DD aware that 2020, 2021 and 2022 were unusual years. In 2020 and 2021 grades were awarded through teacher/centre assessment, so I am not sure there is a full suite of past papers and grade boundaries anyway for those years.

Yes, there is a full set of past papers and grade boundaries for 2022 - but again, there was consideration of the issues that cohort (which is not your DD, sorry) had had to deal with. This is not a secret and her tutor should have been aware of this.

But even then... I have just checked out AQA geography, a pretty popular subject with a large cohort. In 2022 166 gained you a B. In 2023 the mark for a B was 177. So not really that different. If your DD was (say) aiming for a B and so went in with the idea that she needed to score 166 - firstly that is a poorly advised candidate - you need to do your very best - and secondly 166 would have gained a C this year, so only a grade below.

In the same exam an A in 2022 was 198 marks; you say she was working at this level. Well in 2023 an A was 210 - again, not a huge difference. As explained, the difference in these two years (which is probs more than normal) was to account for the experience of the 2022 cohort in relation to Covid and missing a lot of learning - which would not apply in a similar was to the 2023 cohort.

Thanks @clary this is making more
Sense now. Her college were very lax I think. I mean there were other problems during the 2 years like teachers not turning up and going sick for weeks and no replacements. Things like that. That's why she had so many grinds. But nobody mentioned anything about grade boundaries and mark schemes until the results were published.

OP posts:
Original poster
Ceci03 · 10/10/2023 10:02

Lol a grind is an intensive teacher to get you up to exam standard. Do they not have "grind" schools Here? We have them in Ireland. They teach to pass the exam.

OP posts:
clary · 10/10/2023 10:03

Ah just looked up grind:

In Ireland, grinds are private tuition; a major industry in Ireland, particularly at secondary school level.

Grinds - Wikipedia

Original poster
Ceci03 · 10/10/2023 10:04

clary · 10/10/2023 09:57

Did you send the papers for review?

By the way is anyone else longing to know what a "grind" is? I've never heard that word used in this context.

Yeh she sent them for review and they confirmed the marks awarded. So everything is correct. The teachers and her tutors all said they would
Have awarded higher marks. So I guess they are very out of touch.

OP posts:
clary · 10/10/2023 10:04

Ceci03 · 10/10/2023 10:02

Lol a grind is an intensive teacher to get you up to exam standard. Do they not have "grind" schools Here? We have them in Ireland. They teach to pass the exam.

They don't seem to have done a very good job then! so sorry your DD feels so let down OP. She is not stupid and as a PP said, if she works hard at uni and focuses on feedback from tutors, I am sure she will do well.

Original poster
Ceci03 · 10/10/2023 10:05

Sorry the tutors and teachers looked over her papers and said in their view she should
Have gotten higher marks

OP posts:
fedupandstuck · 10/10/2023 10:11

Ceci03 · 10/10/2023 10:05

Sorry the tutors and teachers looked over her papers and said in their view she should
Have gotten higher marks

This to me would indicate that the paper needed to be re-marked and reviewed. If the teachers genuinely thought that the work was sufficient for enough more marks to get a B grade rather than a D grade, then it surely has been incorrectly marked! It makes no sense to say that a re-mark isn't needed, whilst also saying that they think she should have got a much higher mark.

50lessfat · 10/10/2023 10:22

You can’t really compare pre 2019 as the A levels changed in 2019 and the covid years or 2022 as they were less harsh in the marking and I think in the 2022 A levels they knew what they were going to be questioned on. Compare 2019 and 2023 grade boundaries as these are probably the most consistent.

clary · 10/10/2023 10:24

fedupandstuck · 10/10/2023 10:11

This to me would indicate that the paper needed to be re-marked and reviewed. If the teachers genuinely thought that the work was sufficient for enough more marks to get a B grade rather than a D grade, then it surely has been incorrectly marked! It makes no sense to say that a re-mark isn't needed, whilst also saying that they think she should have got a much higher mark.

Show quote history

OP says they were sent for review and came back with no change

clary · 10/10/2023 10:25

TBH as a former classroom teacher and current tutor I would never use 2022 papers for anything but question practice, and even then... there were amendments to papers and other factors which would not be in place going forward.

I go back to 2019 for the last set of useful grade boundaries and past papers tbh. And any decent tutor should a) know that and b) be absolutely on top of what a student needs to do to gain their best grade.

clary · 10/10/2023 10:26

50lessfat · 10/10/2023 10:22

You can’t really compare pre 2019 as the A levels changed in 2019 and the covid years or 2022 as they were less harsh in the marking and I think in the 2022 A levels they knew what they were going to be questioned on. Compare 2019 and 2023 grade boundaries as these are probably the most consistent.

Actually first reformed A levels were sat in 2017 - so you can use 2017, 2018 and 2019 past papers and boundaries as a guide. But even then it's bnever as simple as "score 223 and you will get an A".

fedupandstuck · 10/10/2023 10:27

@clary then if the paper has actually been reviewed and re-marked by the exam board, the inescapable conclusion is that the teacher(s) are talking nonsense. Unfortunately.

50lessfat · 10/10/2023 10:30

@clary I stand corrected I didn’t know the exact year but my sons state college only used pre 2019 grade boundaries and mock tests. He did get a B in his maths mock test so we acted on this and paid for a 4 day revision course and he managed to get an A in the actual A level in Summer 2023 which he needed to get into medicine. It’s so important to know if the mocks are accurate or not.

clary · 10/10/2023 10:33

@fedupandstuck well quite.

Hughs · 10/10/2023 10:59

The problem is nothing to do with grade boundaries - the teacher is perhaps using that to deflect. If they are saying they would have marked it higher and the exam board has reviewed it and confirmed the marking is correct, then that is a massive fuck up on the part of the teacher. They clearly don't understand the mark scheme properly and gave your DD an incorrect assessment of her work. Even worse if they were referring to covid grade boundaries when talking about a non covid paper.

Original poster
Ceci03 · 10/10/2023 11:07

Yeh and I don't think you can say to students not to aim for a mark but to just "do your best". How do students prepare for Oxbridge or to get AAA for medicine or whatever I. That case? Surely they must need accurate mocks?

OP posts:
Original poster
Ceci03 · 10/10/2023 11:09

Hughs · 10/10/2023 10:59

The problem is nothing to do with grade boundaries - the teacher is perhaps using that to deflect. If they are saying they would have marked it higher and the exam board has reviewed it and confirmed the marking is correct, then that is a massive fuck up on the part of the teacher. They clearly don't understand the mark scheme properly and gave your DD an incorrect assessment of her work. Even worse if they were referring to covid grade boundaries when talking about a non covid paper.

Right. I'm starting to think this is where the problem is. Does anyone know when the decision was taken to revert to pre COVID marking. School are saying it was only announced in the summer so they had no clue.

OP posts:
Lougle · 10/10/2023 11:10

Ceci03 · 09/10/2023 23:41

I mean who knows is you're a candidate who did well to get 70% on an hard paper or who cruised and got 80% on an easy paper. Im stupid aren't I

The whole point is that the grade system does all that for you. If a student has an A*, then the information you have is that given the difficulty of the paper, and the performance of the cohort in general, they were one of the top achievers for that year.

Say a maths paper had the question "Matt had 3 apples and gave one to Lucy. How many apples did he have left?" and another maths paper had the question "Matt had 7 apples and gave one to Lucy and two to Mark. How many apples did he have left?" Clearly, the second question is harder. But there are only so many ways you can ask a subtraction question in sentence form. So it might be that in the first year, 150/200 got the question right, but in the second year only 80/200 got the question right. Given that huge numbers of children take the exam each year, it's unlikely that any one year's students are going to be massively less able than another. So that tells you that the second question must be harder. The grade boundaries would be adjusted to keep similar proportions of students with each grade.

fedupandstuck · 10/10/2023 11:18

There's a big difference between "not aiming for a mark" and being totally unable to prepare a student for an exam. I would never have said to my a level students to aim for a specific mark on an exam. I would however have made sure they were absolutely familiar with the format of the exam, the types of questions, the kinds of answers expected, the subject knowledge needed to answer the kinds of questions asked...etc etc. They would have done plenty of practice and mock exams and be very familiar with the kind of level that they were working at. In over a decade of delivering an A level course with a substantial exam, I never had a child who was working at an A grade level drop down to a D grade, without there being a known extenuating circumstance.