Unis sugarcoating problems with year abroad at open days

[Marthamalteser]

i accompanied my granddaughter to a top uni today and sat at the back while she attended the subject talk. The degree includes a year abroad and although multiple parents said they had heard getting visas was very difficult post-Brexit, the lecturer tried to brush this under the carpet. They also refused to be transparent about year abroad funding - a young person asked if Turing funding would be means tested (unlike Erasmus) and they said it was all still in flux. Yet we know that this uni last year only awarded Turing to disadvantaged students (not ‘squeezed middle’ students like my granddaughter). They were also very vague about what help they gave to students to secure a study or work placement. My granddaughter says that they don’t seem to give much. To me this is a red flag or am I wrong? Which unis are good for year abroad help and are distributing Turing funding?

My university teaches a number of MFL ab initio, because they realise not everyone has the opportunity to study a range of languages to A Level. The ab initio course is quite tough, and students are expected to get up to speed by the end of 1st Year, so the 2nd & subsequent years are taught together.

We're an RG university, and we offer almost all of our degree programmes with a year abroad or a year in industry - what used to be called a "sandwich year." These are very popular programmes, and the students who do them learn far far more than the "skills" agenda realises.

My dc is at a state grammar sixth form (nice area fwiw) not studying languages but out of interest I looked at they had 3 pupils take French A level, 6 German and 6 Spanish in 2023. Year group size is 300 (125 did biology for context) I can’t see how the language A courses continue to be offered. And that’s at a school that has highest entry requirements in area and is seen as best choice for the most academic students.

@FarEast That’s what the DS could look for. Ab initio at uni as part of MFL does have the expectation of parity in y2. Not all achieve that by any means. However ab initio as part of another degree under a MFL for all umbrella is much more forgiving . The young man we know studied engineering at a Grande Ecole in France and wasn’t examined in French in the same way as an MFL degree would be. So although it’s hard, it’s doable and an option.

There is no getting round our lack of interest in MFLs. It’s awful and yes, Joni Mitchell was right.

I feel very sorry for students at the moment, British universities don't seem to be worth it... the unbelievable expense, Brexit and the lack of recognition for most qualifications abroad. I hope there will be enough of a push back for things to improve!

Interesting point above about people from difficult backgrounds not being as optimistic as those who are better off. Optimism in my view brings with it better luck as you keep trying things thinking they will work and if 1 in 100 things do go well you have higher chances than the pessimist who never bothered trying as they think things will go wrong. We can apply to my 139 applications to London law firms in year 3 of my degree and 25 interviews until interview 25 came up trumps. I didn't live up - was that because I was middle class or so worried about being poor I had to keep on? I suppose if I were rich as a king I wouldn't even bother trying as everything would be handed on a plate.

I did German A level (and German and also French O level) and we had 3 of us only in lower sixth and only 2 by upper sixth. I liked it. It fitted in well with our studies in history A level and I was doing loads of singing in German as a hobby too. I think because of the war it may have been slightly hard for my mother and I never went on the German exchange (or the French one for that matter). My older children did French and German but only kept one on for GCSE and my younger's school did French and Spanish (so they did those two but dropped Spanish before GCSE). All 5 got to do some latin at school but gave it up as it is very hard.

I just checked a local comp near us and I see they do French and Spanish A level. Given I ended up buying an island in Panama for a time Spanish might have been more useful to me than German.

British universities don't seem to be worth it..

This is ignorant rubbish.

British universities are amongst the best in the world. Oxford & Cambridge battle it out with Yale Harvard & MIT for the top 5 universities in the world, and many of the RG universities in the UK are amongst the top 100 for their discipline. I work in a department which is ranked in the top 100 for our subject in the world.

Our education system - and particularly our HE system - is one of the UK's best & most productive exports.

It's only carping Brits who do them down, and vote for government policies which are slowly killing our really world-class education system. Other nations and families do whatever they can to afford to send their children here to be educated.

Same with my step DD. Of course, there will be rare exceptions but @TizerorFizz makes it sounds easy.

To be fair, EU Law is niche and always has been. How many actually worked and qualified as lawyers in the EU after taking the degree?

We’ve known for some years now that working in the EU is not going to be easy and I haven’t said it is. She needs a job then a visa. There was no guarantee of a job in the EU at any stage after her degree.

But you don’t need a EU passport to work in the EU. You need a job. So look at what needs to be done but there’s stiff competition. You have to compete for what u want in a very competitive market.

@Dixiechickonhols If a grammar cannot get decent numbers, how will a “big standard” comp?

I agree with the comments on optimism from @Xenia . DC have to work at getting these jobs. EU law jobs abroad were also rare 20 years ago. You need to get qualified to practice law. Generally that will be here. It’s persistence, job experience and then go for the EU jobs. Not easy though as 18,000 pa study law. Others convert. It’s competitive .

Aaaah! Bog standard - autocorrect!

I'm not British - I find the hand-wringing about MFL's and A-levels here quite strange.
In my home country multilinguism is part of every day life, we speak at least 3 as a given so the idea of everyone needing to 'study it' academically, or else losing out is rather odd. I went on to pick up a few more languages, in fact many people from other countries learn English to study here through formal language classes but also through watching TV etc. Here people seem to need a lot of handholding. Again. not judgement, that's just my observation.

I don't think the lack of 'academic interest' in MFL's necessarily indicates a lack of interest in languages personally I'd just encourage DC to save their A-Levels, and then degree for something else that they can't do on the side, unless they were really passionate about it. There are so many options these days, you can do language exchanges on the internet, Amazon Prime has foreign language films with English titles, entire libraries in various languages are available for free on the Internet. In fact even unis have language courses, I managed to get a DELF B1 certification alongside my completely unrelated degree at the university language centre. Classes open to everyone but a 20% discount for students.

A couple of decades ago we didn't have this many resources so MFL had not only the extremely passionate DC who would have done it regardless, but those for whom it looked like a good option to learn languages, when there were few other means. These days - if MFL courses are one of the few that have years abroad they might well become more popular again. But many universities have exchange programs not just with EU countries. It really depends on the course!

FYI Spain, Portugal and Italy are amongst the EU countries now offering Digital Nomad Visas. Most who can WFH in the UK on a salary are eligible.

Depending on various details of the personal situation, any of these countries could be a possibility for some DC.

@NDWifeandMan Its not remotely normal here for anyone to speak anything other than English. They don’t need to. So hey would they watch French or Spanish tv programmes? They don’t see the need.

You also misunderstand why MFLs are important. They teach more then a language. At best they open up an interest in culture, politics, food, arts and a myriad of other interests. The best students don’t just learn a language. MFLs are not learnt from tv or film in any meaningful way and why should an academic subject be sidelined to a tv show? Would you think learning biology was best done like this?

Exchange programmes anywhere have to be funded! Where does the student get money from to go somewhere expensive? There’s no difference and these students are not more deserving than MFL ones. MFL degrees have always had a year abroad in recent memory. This should not be dumbed down and others should have a chance to go abroad too, as you did.

DD did a year abroad 2021-22 in a European country. She did not need a visa. She had to apply for a residence permit within so many weeks of entering the country in person. Student Finance gave her extra money for her year abroad. Accommodation was cheaper and bills included (unlike here) and that definitely counter-acted the cost of travel a couple of times to return home.

I think you're misunderstood the point of my post.

There are 3 categories of DC:
1 - Who would do MFL no matter what.
2 - Who would like to do MFL, but are deciding between it and competing options.
3 - Who don't know what to do, and for whom MFL is an option.

The difference between 2 and 3 is that for 2, they are choosing between MFL and another passion. For 3, they don't have any particular passion, but MFL can be an option if it is ab-initio. Unlike something like say, mathematics where you need to have done it at A-levels.

The demand for MFL from 2 and 3 is dropping. Why? Because there are other options for learning a language and so, if your liking for it was lukewarm, you would do something that you could not pick up later on life, or on the side. I would advise my DC to do exactly this. If they REALLY wanted to do MFL of course, go ahead, but it's the ones on the fence that are contributing to the drop. And here's why.

A few decades ago, when there were few avenues to learn another language doing it academically at A-levels, and then going on to uni to do it was the only way.
These days, if you 'love languages' there are so many other options. Therefore, people choose other things for their academic pursuits and learnt languages on the side. Biology is a bit of a silly example because you can't really do it on your own. A more appropriate example would be music. Many people have music lessons but few choose to pursue Music degrees compared to the population who studied it.
I'm not sure what experience you have with MFL but my point wasn't that people learn it from a 'TV show' - if you read my sentence properly, it was stated as a medium that ignites interest, alongside For example, people who are interested in anime and K-pop start with TV shows, it ignites their interest and they go for formal lessons. Language qualifications in Europe for example have to follow the CEFR framework and these include an awareness of an discussion in culture, politics, art, all of the things you mentioned. Anybody can learn and do the exams. C2 level, the highest confirms proficiency at the highest levels of the language including academic proficiency. Plenty of other people around the world learn this way, because other cultures value languages. Because they want to go to university, because of TV shows as I said earlier, many reasons. They don't moan, like you 'omg we don't have A-levels and university degrees in this, so we cannot learn any other languages'. And many of these are not the languages they speak daily. If like you said 'they don't need to other than speaking English' well, that's their inwardness to blame, isn't it?

Your final point also supports the crux of my argument. Exchange programs are expensive, and other students are not more deserving than MFL ones. Therefore, if everyone can go abroad. What is the incentive for them to choose MFL for a degree, when they can do something else and still keep their language learning up? Even in my own university many did exchanges, specialist for their own degree subject, aided by their CEFR qualifications done alongside their degree. It opened more doors for them than a 'plain MFL' and many of them did humanities subjects.

Of course, if MFL is the only way people can go abroad interest will re-ignite but, in your own words that's not an outcome that's desirable either because, well, erm everyone should have the chance to go abroad.

Which, again, university is not the only way, I have been on funded language exchanges through things like the Alliance Francaise. Coming to study in the U.K is by the by but many of my peers have gotten jobs, done secondments, etc without it being provided by the 'university'. Yes, it's a shame Brexit has closed so many doors, but there are other ways, as people in other countries have to do. And I'm not even from a privileged background. If you're talking about funding so many Brits take a gap year, there are working holidays etc you can get a visa for on a British passport that people from 'developing' countries like me won't even get the chance to sniff at. You're still quite privileged compared to people in many other countries.

@NDWifeandMan As you haven’t done a MFL degree, I can see you have no idea what’s involved. It’s not just about acquiring a language. Do you really not see the difference between the degrees and other ways of learning a language? This is the big problem. MFL degrees are dumbed down by those who don’t know or understand the full breadth of the degree. They are academic. Those that take the elite MFL degrees study so much more than language and gain substantial transferable skills.

It’s not true Brits pick up all these MFLs readily via other means. They rely on others to speak English. You simply don’t get tv shows igniting much interest here.In what languages? Where? K-pop is Korean isn’t it? Few linguists look at that and then study Korean at degree level. Many Dc would not find MFL programmes or bother watching them.

DD has a MFL degree. She liked medieval French poetry (obviously picked up from a tv show) and is now a barrister because she acquired transferable skills plus great writing and advocacy skills. As a linguist why should she not be able to study an academic MFL course? It’s not the same as the language courses you describe which are not qualifying degree courses for law conversion. You completely misunderstand the purpose of MFL degrees here. There are no alternatives that I know of which confer the same qualifications for further study or equivalent academic rigour.

You're looking at this the wrong way. The question is not the academic worth of an MFL degree. As I have repeated several times (this is the third time actually) DC who genuinely want to study languages at an academic level - all fine.

But the DC who are not, and are considering it as one of many other options may choose to study something else instead. You are deluded if you think that solely MFL offers 'academic rigour' if we're talking about transferable skills as opposed to subject-specific ones, your daughter is just one anecdotal example and you cannot scientifically prove that she could not have gotten her current career any other way. Unlike being a medical doctor, where you HAVE to study medicine at university. I have got other anecdotal examples of people who have studied a variety of other humanities, and had similar career paths to your daughter.

Also, by going on about your daughter liking mediaeval French poetry and her not being able to study an MFL course you've again missed the point completely. I repeat here, for the fourth time, DC who absolutely have an interest - go ahead and study MFL! Nobody is stopping them.

But if, knowing everything that they know, DC choose not to study A-Level Languages and go on to MFL degrees you cannot force them. Again here I know quite a few DC who were deliberating between MFL and something else, choosing the latter despite liking languages. After taking advice from current MFL students. their siblings/wider family. Are you now going to claim that perhaps, these MFL students are incapable of making other people understand what it really entails? Maybe they're doing it wrong, eh?

As an aside assuming a limited number of students, and each of these taking only one degree subject, an increase in people taking MFL leads to a drop in something else. So what you are really arguing for as well is, what other subject should lose students, so that more people take MFL? What are these 'would-be' MFL students doing instead, and why?

Btw demand for language A-levels has been declining for close to 2 decades, even before compulsory study was removed, and the decline in MFL started before that. There are lots of articles studies analysing the reason as to why, but one recurrent theme is people needing 'good grades' to get into university. Which are apparently more difficult to achieve with MFL. Reduction in funding and teaching is also mentioned but then you go back to the whole chicken and egg of 'nobody wanted it so why are we offering it'.

I’m just glad she can write English without using the word “gotten”.

Anyway I’m happy with my views and I still think a MFL degree is hugely worthwhile for those who are interested in academic rigour. Obviously not if you are not that bothered. Im slightly fed up with being told I’m wrong and you are right but you say I’m using anecdotal evidence. You asked my what my interest was and I told you. Anyway I’m happy that mfl
is an academic degree and can be used as a springboard for many careers.

'Gotten' is not wrong - perhaps you dislike American English but many other non-American, non-UK countries use it. How ironic, since you have a great interest in the academic study of languages, this regional variation of grammar seems to have escaped you.

You have also somehow gotten it into your head that I consider MFL a degree lacking in academic rigour. Or that it can't be used for many careers. Which I never said.

What I did say was that other degrees also have academic rigour and transferable skills for other careers. I then went on to examine why people chose these things over MFL. If you are truly interested in the decline of MFL you would be curious about why other people didn't see the value in it that you did, instead of just thinking they're misinformed. But I guess you're not actually interested in it after all. Long may it continue.

Have a good day.

Gotten is 100% wrong.

'Gotten' is 100% acceptable. It's an older form of the verb that remained in use in a former colony after it became unfashionable in England. It's perfectly possible to understand the meaning of the sentence the poster used it in.

Only in the USA. It’s not acceptable in formal writing here. In fact the word “got” is not a great word for anyone with intellect.

Any idiot can look up information on the internet and put it on here. It’s interesting how people think they speak a language but don’t delve deep into culture.

Oh dear @TizerorFizz

DS managed to secure 6 months abroad during COVID. DD is due to do hers next year, both said the university only really gave help to those students who, after their 1st year were on target for a 1st.