Unis sugarcoating problems with year abroad at open days

[Marthamalteser]

i accompanied my granddaughter to a top uni today and sat at the back while she attended the subject talk. The degree includes a year abroad and although multiple parents said they had heard getting visas was very difficult post-Brexit, the lecturer tried to brush this under the carpet. They also refused to be transparent about year abroad funding - a young person asked if Turing funding would be means tested (unlike Erasmus) and they said it was all still in flux. Yet we know that this uni last year only awarded Turing to disadvantaged students (not ‘squeezed middle’ students like my granddaughter). They were also very vague about what help they gave to students to secure a study or work placement. My granddaughter says that they don’t seem to give much. To me this is a red flag or am I wrong? Which unis are good for year abroad help and are distributing Turing funding?

I have a relative who doesn't have a EU passport who has an extended visa to work in France. She excelled in her degree subjects, one of which was a MFL and the other E onomics, and did a masters in a leading French university. The road to such a visa isn't easy but it isn't impossible for a bright student who plots his or her course carefully.

I agree with PerpetualOptimist, many many people I have spoken to, myself included, went to open days, or talks where the person skirted over important issues, on a variety of issues, which clearly most parents really do want answering. It feels offensive, like Uni's think we are dumb and don't mind them not answering.

Let’s take a step back for a moment.

I am more cynical than @FarEast; if Turing funds are constrained to well defined criteria, saying that factually isn’t political. My university publishes the criteria on the GoAbroad website. I do agree with her that management by Capita is a bad omen and, as I said earlier, that visas are out of the university’s control (although a good central GoAbroad team can be very helpful). I agree with PPs who think the lecturer was not clued in

Turing funding is also not guaranteed through 2026-27 many places, which is the relevant frame for OP’s DGD.

It is awful to hear of maintenance loans being cut back when students go abroad. However, are PP’s DCs not getting a big tuition break for the full year abroad? It’s 85% or over £7500 for Home students at my university, and this is typical. Without defending the loans situation, this should help.

Those on a student visa can work part time virtually everywhere in the world. It is more typical in many countries for students to do this than in the UK.

@TizerorFizz is correct; British can still work in the EU. They just need the proper visa and this usually entails having a firm job offer. The company must successfully make a person-specific argument, so the bar is higher than it was, but it is not impossible. It’s done for postdocs routinely. A few countries like Germany offer a limited Job Seekers visa.

Again, I have never heard of anyone actually failing to get their student visa. I think there may be enough low level hostility towards the UK since Brexit that our students suffer from being relegated to the bottom of the admin pile, but ultimately one of the great things about Study Abroad is that governments worldwide recognise its value and support it

You need to meet the visa requirements and get a sponsor. It's not as easy as it used to be but it happens, just like thousands of highly qualified workers come to U.K. from many countries. The freedom of movement is gone but people are not barred from working abroad

I think answering detailed “what if?” questions on an open day is difficult when the goalposts are changing and when unis apply for funding, they don’t get what they need. To be honest most decent unis have info on their web sites or email the Study Abroad unit. It’s not offensive not to know.

It’s clear though, your maintenance goes down a lot if you work. The minimum is higher if you study.

Re the posters saying they have never heard of anyone failing to get their student visa, I have seen cases reported on WIWIKAU where British students had to return from what should have been their year abroad in Germany due to being unable to get a residence permit before their 90/180 day Schengen allowance expired. From what I've read, the system in Germany works differently from some other EU countries in that students travel out without a visa, but then have to apply for a residence permit once there. However, I've not personally had to research this. I also know of someone who started his placement in Spain a month late due to problems getting a visa - not ideal!

For MFL degrees, the year abroad is a key and integral part of the the whole degree, so it's reasonable to expect members of staff representing the MFL department at open days to be able to answer questions about it. I'm not saying that they can be expected to know every detail of each country's visa laws, but they should be aware of whether students have been forced to start placements late or alter their plans due to visa issues.

Lack of funding for languages has meant that most working-class students have squeezed out of Erasmus/working in the EU for decades. My DS sixth form can’t offer German A level because of funding issues. The only people I’ve ever heard going to Europe to study and work are middle-class. I’m not saying it’s great this is now gone. What I am saying is don’t start with the ‘stupid people voted for Brexit’ arguments because of Erasmus because these people’s kids never got any advantage from it in the past.

I suggest that if your DC have had issues with Turing, getting visas etc, to contact your MP. They have voted in this complete mess, so make them work for their money and do something.

Best advice on this thread @Malbecfan ! And an ordinary backbench MP is paid about twice what a university lecturer is paid ...

@LaaDeeDa321 I think a big problem historically around the university experience in the UK had been the class barrier - the real or perceived sense that certain degree programmes were only for the middle class. I do think that is changing, but too slowly. (I am from a country with less of this barrier.)

But one great thing about Erasmus is that all tuition fees were waived and at my university there was further assistance as well. So I’m asking sincerely, how was this restricted to the middle class? I agree it’s awful that there is no funding for German A level at your DC’s school but this is sadly widespread.

It is awful to hear of maintenance loans being cut back when students go abroad. However, are PP’s DCs not getting a big tuition break for the full year abroad? It’s 85% or over £7500 for Home students at my university, and this is typical. Without defending the loans situation, this should help.

Unfortunately that doesn’t really help with cash flow to actually go on the year abroad, like receiving a maintenance load would. For the vast majority who take loans, it’s only realised later (and still an additional cost compared to a 3 year degree).

@EduCated They are only reduced if the student works. That means they earn money. Why should they get a loan (tax payer funded) for more money? If they study at a uni the minimum maintenance is higher. It wholly depends on what you choose to do but working surely isn’t there to be saved up and not spent while a tax payer funded loan is used?

I fundamentally disagree with MFL being curtailed in many state schools. Alive in grammars and high performing comps by the way. However I cannot tell you how many times I have read on MN that DC is giving up MFL because it’s too hard or a waste of time! Then we wonder why schools don’t bother? Everywhere else Dc learn MFLs. Here we cannot be bothered and it’s too hard!

Brexit has totally messed up students going abroad in that the Erasmus system was clear and straightforward. The replacement mess isn’t. It’s not helping anyone to have pulled out and it’s hardly the fault of unis. Anyone voting for Brexit didn’t care one jot about students from any background. Plus why does it matter who studies MFL really? You cannot make DC want to take MFL but more need to be shown the benefits. You don’t do this by complaining about Dc who do the subject!

One imagines Brexit parents don’t see the benefits so the downward spiral gathered pace over the last 35 years the anti EU sentiments got stronger. Many DC are given the narrative that it’s a waste of time and everyone else speaks English anyway. Many have little notion of understanding or studying the culture of others but just want a pub in their favourite Spanish resort to meet other Brits and moan. Is it any wonder few take MFLs? Many uni departments have shrunk as it is. So we need a cultural shift and to stop blaming the DC who do want to MFLs for somehow being to blame for others not doing it. If anyone enjoys a MFL, work at it and you get to go abroad and won’t need the highest results for a uni course.

@TizerorFizz I agree with you on this. Unfortunately it doesn’t help the DS of @LaaDeeDa321 who cannot get German AL at school. It is a vicious cycle.

@poetryandwine a lot of students wouldn’t be able to afford an extra year of study if they are from a less affluent background. Throw in the fact that languages are the first subject to be cut when the budget is tight and you can see where the challenges are. Children who are not middle-class haven’t had the same exposure to languages on holidays too. If you’ve spent your summers in Provence and winters on the slopes, you are ahead.
perhaps @TizerorFizz is right about grammars and high performing comps but those aren’t schools that most working-class young people are attending. I think she probably knows that in all honesty.

@LaaDeeDa321I think your caricature of DC having advantages is unfair.

My DD did MFL at uni. She didn’t do any MFL at primary. We didn’t take her on holiday to either MFL country she studied until she was 13. Then it was just a couple of city breaks and one 2 week holiday. She did ski for a week with the school! Don’t think immersion in mfl was the goal though. She’s just got an ear for MFL. She was also prepared to put the effort in. This involved watching films, reading books and taking advantage of resources at school.

I would have been upset for her if she could only have done one MFL. Her dad and me are MFL illiterate! She’s had no help from us at all. She did the work required. However she was interested and encouraged. Not privileged in the way you suggest. She met DC at uni were already bilingual and they had certainly had a head start. DD wasn’t with anyone like that at school and she just knuckled down and found she was good at it.

The young person from a deprived background is going to get far more financial help to go on the year abroad than others. Turing is for them. They will get the higher loans. Often the unis give these Dc bursaries. My DN got one and uses it for travel. Often the worse off on paper are better off financially. DN has never needed to work as a student: maximum loan plus the bursary is pretty good. That’s more money than many, especially if parents are short of money and don’t make up their share.

Therefore I cannot see why the worse off cannot go abroad. They are better off then others.

@poetryandwine is correct. If you don’t use it, you lose it.

What is the evidence that “working class” or fsm DC actually want MFL in any great number? I doubt DC getting 4/5 at GCSE English will find MFL a breeze. Even when I was at a grammar school it was hard and not universally passed with few doing A levels. German is falling off a cliff. DD did get an option for German but many schools now don’t teach it. Spanish and French mostly. Some offer one or the other and not both which really disadvantages linguists. They thrive on breadth like scientists do, However until we get over the “working class” view that MFL are not needed and there’s little benefit in studying them, we get fewer and fewer MFL teachers and DC interested even though it’s part of the EBac. Who cares about that though? No one.

Your dd’s experience is not the norm. My DS got a 8 in his German GCSE and has never been to Germany. That doesn’t change the general situation for all students in the UK. Are you seriously saying the MFL teaching in the UK is well funded and well supported across the board? Seriously? I know you like to come into this board with strong views which you won’t deviate from but seriously?

While my son is working, he is getting a pocket money salary that won't cover rent even. In france, the standard intern salary is 150 euro a month. Thankfully he is getting more than that but not a proper wage.I

Well, @TizerorFizz and @LaaDeeDa321 in no way was I suggesting that any sector of our DC deserves less access to MFL teaching.

I do know it’s complicated and even some Russell Group universities are looking hard at their Germanic languages programmex because enrolments are so low. But I think we lose something important as a society when less popular languages become available only to the sharp elbowed middle classes and the universities they favour.

It is similar in STEM: you do best in my maths-adjacent discipline if you’ve got Further Maths. We all know which schools are least likely to offer FM (or access to the Advancec Maths Support Programme). We want their students, but to recruit them is to burden them. It is a moral dilemma.

I didn’t think you were @poetryandwine 🙂

I asn't keen on mine doing a year abroad actually as it means a year longer before you get into adult life and a more complicated set of years at university etc. I would not have stopped them had they wanted a degree with a year abroad however. My son's friend did i t (before covid lockdowns) and worked in I think it was France and Spain (as was doing French and Spanish degree) and had a good time. It took a bit of getting used to the jobs concerned and finding friends in Paris etc and then all your friends doing 3 year degrees finish when you come back and are going into year 4 so it does not always sync well with friendships.

My friend’s son had to spend well over £1k last year sorting visas and legal paperwork for Spain. Not Oxbridge’s fault but very unclear messaging from the Spanish university. Missed the start of term because it took long to get the visa despite the help of his educated and super organised doctor parents.

It was very stressful and they cursed Brexit every day.

His girlfriend however went to S America and it was much easier…

@poetryandwine Why sharp elbowed? We had no idea at primary that dd would be good at MFL. I do not see why sharp elbows comes into anything. No one was pushed out for her to study MFL. In fact the more that do, the more it’s available. It’s parents and Dc who don’t want MFLs.

Im forever seeing talented parents coaching Dc in maths, music, sciences and MFLs. My DD had not one second of that. We are simply not like that and MFLs were not what we could help with. Nor anything else much. All the uni lecturers on these threads get their Dc onto all sorts of courses and competitions. We did nothing. So who exactly is sharp elbowed?

MFLs are less popular for a reason. No one encourages Dc to take German. Schools drop it. I don’t agree with it but I don’t fund schools and tell Dc what to study either. I don’t see why someone who has less money cannot do the year abroad. They will get Turing!

@Xenia I was concerned about DD2 missing out on friendships when she returned from her time in Japan, but a couple of others went abroad and the year she joined was bigger than her old one, so she has made some good friends.

In terms of language acquisition, DH's mother was German and came over here after the war. For various reasons, she was discouraged from teaching DH much German, although he understands a lot from visiting family out there (who all speak amazing English apart from the toddlers!) We tried to encourage the DDs to learn German, but at school French was the first MFL. DD expressed an interest in learning Japanese and enrolled on a course the year before she went. She has carried this on since she returned and is going to take a qualification in it next term.

@LaaDeeDa321 Why is my DDs experience not the norm? What is the norm? Visiting foreign relatives? Didn’t do that? Having a native speaker parent? No. Being offered two MFLs? Yes. Agree to that. What else? Working hard? Being good at something? Yes. Not always having great teachers? No she didn’t. Having useless parents? Definitely! Cannot see the huge advantages to be honest and your DC is studying German so what’s the big chip doing there?

For Turing funding, the government has promised funding until summer 2025. Universities can’t tell students what will happen after that because they don’t know themselves.

As PP has mentioned, the government outsource the running of the Turing scheme to Capita and it is a shambles. Universities bid for as much money as they can but as the budget is relatively small, there isn’t enough to go around and it then falls to individual universities to decide how best to allocate the funding they have received. Do they prioritise students on a compulsory year abroad, or prioritise students who come from disadvantaged backgrounds? Either way, some groups of students will miss out.

This is so sad. I did MFL in the early 2000s and it was so easy. I taught English in France, then found myself a job in a company in Germany. Brexit seems to have decimated all that.