Which University to apply to for Maths

[Mumski45]

DS is just starting Yr 13 and has decided to apply to do a Maths degree at Uni starting 2024. He is doing A levels in Maths/F Maths/Physics/Chemistry.

He took Maths at the end of Yr 12 and was hoping for an A star, however he only got an A due to the shifting of grade boundaries. Last year his percentage score was easily an A star but this year he was 2-3% under the boundary which shifted by 9-10%

His predicted grades are Physics A star and Chemistry A but he has no predicted grade for FM as they only start the course this year.

He is also planning to take the TMUA in October.

He is wondering whether it is worth him still applying for the Uni's such as Durham/Warwick/Manchester/Edinburgh etc which require an A star in either Maths or FMaths or whether he should concentrate on those which only need an A and if you have any experience or knowledge of Maths at Uni which ones would you recommend.

TIA

What a shame he took it early. Not sure why schools do this these days. He’s been disadvantaged hasn’t he?

What about the step papers? He needs step for Warwick I think. So why not a mixof unis? Read the standard offers very carefully. Is A star in maths always required ? If so, come down a notch. It’s not likely to matter that much if he’s just below elite level. He will still be very employable.

Plus other DC will have had the same experience. He won’t be the only one affected by the resumption of nearer to “normal” grade boundaries.

I'm not sure he has been disadvantaged as having achieved this early may point us in the right direction for the right course and the courses with higher entrance requirements may not have suited him. He believes that the % he achieved is a fair reflection of his performance although he was hoping it would be enough for an A star.

Warwick require a certain level in either STEP, MAT or TMUA but I am not sure it is worth applying even with a good TMUA score if they will discount him due to the lack of A star in Maths.

The beauty of the TMUA is that the results are released on 28 Nov and you do not have to reveal them to any unis unless you wish to do so and, if good, you can release after you know the result.

One of my DC made a preliminary selection of maths degrees for UCAS pre the TMUA and then fine tuned their uni and course selection (eg pure vs stats mix; 'maths&' choices) taking into account their overall TMUA score (good but not stella) and score by paper (less good for paper 1 and strong for paper 2).

They did not submit their UCAS form until December and their sixth form was fine with that because they had talked through the logic with them and had PS and references lined up.

Is there anything to stop him taking Maths again next year, alongside FM?

@catscoffeecrystals we have considered that option but I am not sure that his predicted grade would be different. We are planning to ask this but if they still predict an A then he is no further forward and will have extra work to do.

@PerpetualOptimist that sounds like a good plan and will definitely suggest this approach to DS.

He could, of course, look at a wide variety of engineering courses and economics. The same careers are often possible with a broad range of mathsy degrees.

You are being positive about his A level in y12.

Great @Mumski45. The important thing is for your DS to end up on a course that is a good pitch for his mathematical 'trajectory'. Edinburgh, Manchester, Warwick (and some others like Bath) look for an Astar for Maths. Bristol allows for Astar in FM and A in Maths (as do Durham and Warwick MORSE if accompanied with a good TMUA score).

So some of your DS's aspirational choices are still on the table. However, there are also other unis such as U of Birmingham, U of Nottingham, Lancaster U and U of Leeds, and further afield, Exeter and Southampton, offering a good range of maths courses that could also be considered.

His TMUA score will help him determine his 'ladder' of applications on his UCAS form. As Tizer says, he can also look at maths adjacent courses like Engineering, particularly if the Physics performance looks strong and, if I remember rightly, engineering was a route he considered during Y12?

Thanks @PerpetualOptimist I will suggest DS looks at the MORSE course at Warwick. Someone else mentioned it and I kind of assumed it was more CS based Maths but looks like I was wrong. I think it might be something he is interested in should his TMUA score be good enough.

Yes he was considering engineering and I asked him again today once we saw his predicted grade for Physics but he still seems to be focused on the Maths.

Lancaster is one we have visited already as we are local and it does seem like a good option. DH favours it as he did an MBA there and we have found a PhD student from there to act as a mentor for him. He also already has a part time job which he could keep going so lots of plus points.

My concern was that he shouldn't fall into that as an easy local option without considering others.

Thank you both for taking the time to reply.

Good advice here, OP. I am a Russell Group STEM academic and former admissions tutor, and DH is an RG Maths professor.

Upon reading your post I immediately thought of the MORSE programme at Warwick but it is no surprise that @PerpetualOptimist got there first. I also agree with @TizerorFizz that given the well rounded scientific strengths of DS it would be worthwhile to investigate some of the more mathematical branches of Engineering, such as Mech Eng and EE. The dividing line between Applied Maths and Engineering is artificial and permeable. And of course DS is well placed for Physics or a Joint Hons programme in Physics and Maths.

Two of the hidden gems of UK HE offer outstanding Maths programmes, in terms of both student experience and objective research strength (which does impact strong students such as your DS). These are Lancaster, discussed above and, interestingly, Glasgow. In the latest Research Exercise Framework (2021) Glasgow came 5th in the UK, displacing Warwick and Edinburgh, and Lancaster came 7th. DS looks an excellent fit for both.

BTW students at both unis look happy to me, and Glasgow is in an excellent part of a wonderful city (I am a foreigner and this surprised me; you may already know it)

A word about STEP: Cambridge are open about the fact that they set grade boundaries to control their intake. Typically only 50% of their Maths candidates make the offer. You and DS sound very sensible and may wish to discuss the implications of this statement. Best wishes to him

@poetryandwine thanks for your input. Lancaster is definitely on the list and I will suggest he looks at Glasgow.

Had a further look at MORSE which is also available at Lancaster, I think it looks really interesting for progression to a job in business or finance which he currently favours over engineering.

@PerpetualOptimist DS has his first session on an AMSP course for TMUA tonight which was a suggestion of yours on a previous thread.

With respect to grade boundaries I actually agree with the idea of avoiding grade inflation as otherwise students end up on courses not suited to them. The last thing we want is him ending up somewhere we're he isn't happy. He has been ambitious in his aspirations for the top courses before the A level result but I think is being more realistic now.

This all seems so much more complicated than when I did my maths degree at Manchester over 30 years ago. I don't remember predicted grades being a thing then but maybe passage of time has filled my memory.

Your help is much appreciated. I am itching to get on the phone to his teachers to ask their opinions but am avoiding it as I think DS needs to manage this process himself.

From what I've seen, he's unlikely to get an offer from Cambridge/Durham/Warwick (for maths) and would be better focusing on the next tier. There are still many good unis accessible to him.
There is a previous thread with relevant info:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/higher_education/4838297-does-anyone-know-much-about-the-mat-entrance-exam-for-maths-at-imperial-oxford

My DD did her Maths degree at Derby, it was a few years ago but she loved it there.

@Mumski45 Just to let you know, huge numbers of engineering grads don’t become engineers at all. They end up in finance jobs earning far more. Oxbridge and several others are known for it! However he should do what he’s interested in.

My son is starting his second year at University of Birmingham doing Maths. He had an offer from Warwick but declined it because he didn't want to move away from home. At the time I was told by posters on Mumsnet that he was mad to turn it down and he wouldn't amount to much if he couldn't live away from home.

PS, I forgot to mention that DS might want to consider joining the online forum The Student Room. Most members are Y 13 and undergraduates helping each other with university questions.

Sadly I think @EctopicSpleen is correct that most Schools of Maths requiring A star will be rigid about it. (A few may say A star at Maths or FM.) Doing Maths in Y12 and FM in Y13 may be a difficult system in that it makes the crucial Maths your first A Level, taken in a year when you aren’t really in ‘exam mode’.

@losingtheplot999 that’s awful. I hope you ignored them. In many countries where people report greater levels of happiness than in the UK, living at home for university is the norm

They live at home because there are no student halls. It’s a different model. The Grande Ecoles in France require living away from home. DD went to uni of Bologna which has 88,000 students. Not sure we really value that model either.

There’s no doubt we have a maths pecking order of the top few but around 15-20 others are not back numbers and a DC wanting a great job won’t be disadvantaged. Also don’t forget many students don’t have a home uni to meet their needs. They have to move away. We don’t all live in university cities! It’s a luxury if you can stay local for uni and work local whilst saving money with mum and dad. I don’t know a single DC who’s gone to our local (ish) uni that languishes near the bottom of league tables. Probsbly doesn’t offer maths and certainly didn’t offer MFL. We are lucky we have choice and, for some students, grabbing it is vital.

I’m not disputing anything you say, @TizerorFizz . @EctopicSpleen said her DC was slated here for choosing to stay home and attend the fine Maths programme at B’ham. I only mentioned the Continental model to validate that staying home need not be detrimental to wellbeing. I didn’t intend to suggest that it is a viable model for most British students. Luckily it was for her DC. (I am a big supporter of Study Abroad and happily oversaw it in my School for years.)

When doing admissions I dealt with a surprising number of Oxbridge transfers and some were academically successful there. Not everyone will thrive in the most highly ranked programme they are admitted to, and it is a wise student who knows their own best fit.

@poetryandwine actually that was @losingtheplot999 's child, not mine. But I echo your views, both on Birmingham being a good place, on living at home being viable and common on the continent (with the perceived "need" to live away being peculiar to the UK and US) and in general with most of the good advice you have given above.
I also think the middle classes in the UK conflate living away from home at uni with the transition to adulthood to an unreasonable degree. How do they think the >50% who don't go to uni or don't live away from home turn into adults? A fairy godmother waves a wand, perhaps?

@EctopicSpleen I apologise to you and @losingtheplot999 for mixing you up.

I agree with your last statement. Living away can be valuable but is hardly necessary. One difference to the Continent is in the 50% figure. Where fewer attend uni, standards can be more homogeneous. Here, I understand well @TizerorFizz when she says able students near her wouldn’t choose to commute to the local.

Many countries offer pathways to respected middle class professions that don’t require a degree. This has become more and more difficult in the UK with many jobs really only requiring GCSEs plus a bit of IT training now requiring that candidates show a degree. I think the 50% target has created a false equivalence in the UK.

There are cultural differences here and don’t forget we have a uni sector that’s long attracted young people from far and wide. Not as old as Bologna but the unis in the EU have developed differently. In Switzerland there are halls of residence and students don’t all live at home. It’s a bit late for us to change now.

I think we have to accept the 50% figure includes adults. I think we don’t have 50% of school leavers doing degrees. We have far too few doing degree apprenticeships because most of these go to adult employees. We do need to rethink routes into work and training.

@TizerorFizz the national statistic for progression by age 19 was 49.4% in 2021-22. In London it was comfortably over 60%. I wish I could link from my phone.

I am in no way against students living out, just very much against slating those such as the DS of @losingtheplot999 . And whilst I believe you may have a DC who benefitted from Oxbridge, as did my DH, I sometimes despair of the emphasis here on snob appeal
or even pure academic considerations over the question of where a DC will thrive.

We continue to agree on the need for more routes into training and, implicitly in this class conscious nation, into the middle class. I am happy to amplify your ongoing concern that we develop more degree apprenticeships! They are fabulous.

Doing the additional work for Maths if his future is in a Maths degree would not be wasted time. If he re-sat and got an A* it would be worth it.

@caringcarer It might be. You raise a valid possibility; however it depends entirely on whether the unis requiring the A star would recognise the second attempt.

If DS is interested he could certainly look into this. IMO doing Maths and FM together they reinforce each other. As well as being in ‘exam mode’ when you do Maths AL in Y13, doing it simultaneously with FM makes studying for both of them easier