Which University to apply to for Maths

[Mumski45]

DS is just starting Yr 13 and has decided to apply to do a Maths degree at Uni starting 2024. He is doing A levels in Maths/F Maths/Physics/Chemistry.

He took Maths at the end of Yr 12 and was hoping for an A star, however he only got an A due to the shifting of grade boundaries. Last year his percentage score was easily an A star but this year he was 2-3% under the boundary which shifted by 9-10%

His predicted grades are Physics A star and Chemistry A but he has no predicted grade for FM as they only start the course this year.

He is also planning to take the TMUA in October.

He is wondering whether it is worth him still applying for the Uni's such as Durham/Warwick/Manchester/Edinburgh etc which require an A star in either Maths or FMaths or whether he should concentrate on those which only need an A and if you have any experience or knowledge of Maths at Uni which ones would you recommend.

TIA

Has he any idea on career?

I’m a fellow maths geek, I studied maths combined with actuarial science, it won’t however limit career options after university and a few places who do the combined degree accept slightly lower grades than their pure maths degrees.

Hi, @Aurea I’ve just had a look. As you know, CS at Edinburgh is housed in the School of Informatics. They take the view that it is part of this larger field. I find this way of siting the discipline slightly counterintuitive but it is absolutely fine. For an AI focus, which Edinburgh offer, it is especially sensible.

The more important thing for your DS is that the programme looks very strong. Objectively it has everything one would want and some innovative options. The School was ranked 6 in the UK in the 2021 REF (research strength) and the student experience is consistently top 10.

The only component where the School fell down recently was in the area of student feedback. I would guess this was to do with the nationwide Marking and Assessment Boycott which hit Edinburgh rather badly and has now been called off.

So yes, it looks like your DS chose very well. I hope he has a great time there!

My DS3 did maths and while he easily achieved an A* in maths he only got an A in FM and computing. We looked at unis which required AAA or might accept A star AB. That ruled out the very top 5 or so such as Cambridge, Imperial, Warwick, etc. He chose Manchester, which was A star AA but reduced to AAA with FM, Birmingham, AAA, Nottingham AAA or A star AB, Southampton AAA. We avoided Exeter as it was in clearing with ACC but it might have made a good insurance. He actually had Cardiff as his insurance with AAB. He achieved Astar AA and went to Manchester. He graduated with a 2:1 which TBH at a high ranked university like Manchester, was pretty much where his ability lay. If he had gone to a lower ranked uni, he may well have come out with a first. It's balancing whether you'd prefer the more prestigious uni or the higher grade. A tricky decision, to be sure. In retrospect, he may have made a different choice.

To be brutally honest, if your DS is borderline A/ Astar in maths, he may well struggle getting a high grade in a maths degree.

In terms of ability of cohort / competitiveness on entry, Durham and UCL are comparable to Warwick. The last published stats showed the average UCAS points of the cohort at Durham and UCL to be 210, whereas Warwick was 206. Offer rates at Durham and UCL were ~40% whereas at Warwick it was over 80% (the latter might be explained if those who didn't have a good MAT score received an offer conditional on STEP).
Also, FWIW the ability of the cohorts at Imperial and Oxford are very similar both in terms of UCAS points and MAT score. On this basis, Imperial is securely in the top 3 whereas Warwick is some way behind, clustered with UCL and Durham. As far as undergraduate admissions go, the existence of COWI as a distinct "top tier" isn't supported by the data.
Research is different story. Warwick does better than Durham and UCL, but Bristol is ranked above Warwick so again evidence for COWI as a distinct entity is shaky.

@poetryandwine

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply and the reassurance.

He's very lucky to have the five year integrated masters fee free, being Scottish.

He was a Cambridge applicant and initially felt Edinburgh was his 'second best' but he is now excited regarding the AI focus of the Edinburgh course.

He needs to go to open days and decide which course he likes, which uni he gets best feeling for and where he thinks he will ge happiest even if that isn't the top Uni on paper.

There are cultural differences here

Sorry to revisit, but I continue to find this MN belief odd, perhaps because we live in Central London. Lots and lots of DCs privately educated peers chose to study in London. Equally almost everyone in our well regarded local state school (no, mine did not get a place) applied only to London. The exceptions there were, essentially, the white middle class.

Both mine spent part of their time, when studying in London, living at home. I think it was a good idea that they had had some separation, whether living in halls or gap year or study elsewhere, to establish their independence. I personally like the fact that we have had the chance to live with our children as young adults. (It is also very normal for London DC to return home after University.)

Its not just London. DD is now working in an area where it is not usual to leave home for University and the majority of her cohort grew up/studied in the same city. Her flatmate is a local and DD is enjoying a welcoming and the close-knit community.

Yes, ideally you aim for the most suitable course, but if that course happens to be local, don't worry. It is more common than MN would have you believe.

I'd also suggest looking at the universities themselves and in particular the culture as I know Warwick in particular does not suit all, I know 3 drop outs personally (they don't know each other, sheer coincidence). Maths is very good in many universities. I'd also consider the cost of living at each as this varies a lot by second year, my dd can live comfortably on her money at her university whereas she has friends elsewhere paying nearly double for rent (not London).

@Needmoresleep You have taken what I said out of context! It was about comparing universities in the EU and here. We have cultural differences when deciding to leave home to go to uni or not. In the EU lots stay at home. We have tended not to do that and the uni sector grew based on that history. Staying home works for some but what if the local uni doesn’t offer your subject or is very low ranking so won’t meet needs? It’s all very well citing London but us country bumpkins don’t have choice!!

I did not misunderstand. Lots stay at home in the UK. Just not in areas where there are a high proportion of University educated parents. It is not really a difference between the UIK and the rest of Europe, but a difference between different demographics within the UK.

If anyone with a dc starting at Warwick is concerned to read about the "Warwick culture and dropouts" comment, please don't. Dd has had a great first year and knows loads of happy people there. Her rent next year, is very reasonable too which is a bonus.

Which uni does your dd attend?

Quantitatively, continuation at Warwick is 97% so only 3% drop out (in 1st year). That is broadly average, not high. The ones that stick out as having a high dropout rate are Kings (10%), and Imperial/Nottingham/Leeds/Sheffield (all around 6%).
King's also does badly for student satisfaction in other areas. I would encourage anyone picking a uni to look at multiple sources of info including NSS (national student survey). The results are not always as one would expect based on reputation.

I am surprised at the suggestion that Warwick is a particularly problematic University.

However in addition to the University it can be worth asking about maths drop out rates, and what happens. It is not unknown for maths students to find university level a difficult step up, or that they do not enjoy studying just maths. (And look in envy at the English students reading novels.) Universities like Warwick will have "escape routes" perhaps into economics or similar. Cambridge were very good with someone we knew, who did graduate eventually but not in maths. It is not always the ones you might expect, though perhaps for some the switch from being top of the class and finding it effortless, to having to work hard to keep up is a challenge.

@Needmoresleep I know that’s the case for maths at Warwick - ds just graduated but in the offer holder talk a few years back the lecturer said that people could transfer out of but generally not into maths. Their offer rates are pretty high I know…but you have to be very confident in your abilities to go for a three A star offer (or two A stars and two As) knowing they aren’t flexible on offer day. For those who find the maths hard going or want a broader approach it is possible to add in courses from the business school and other departments so I think you could leave with a maths degree but not do an enormous amount of maths…he knew some people who did that and it made their lives a lot easier - and I’m sure have them useful skills too!

Some interesting comments here regarding applying to local unis and living at home.

@UrsulaBelle I think that is a good amount about getting a better class of degree from non top 5 Uni.

@nicknamehelp we have done a few visits already and are planning more this term. However there are only so many we can fit in and I prefer him to spend his time wisely looking at the right ones rather than being unrealistic.

I thought that up to today we were coming to a conclusion that DS would concentrate on Unis which would accept an A in Maths and Fr maths with maybe one aspirational choice if he does well in the TMUA. However he had a chat with his teachers today who are suggesting he could resit and that they would possibly predict an A star if he did. Off to research which Unis are OK with resits now.

Thanks again for all contributions as it is all really relevant and helpful.

A good point even 🙈

The UCAS form has now been submitted and I am coming back to say thanks again for your help. Your support really helped me advise DS.

He has done more thinking and decided he did like the idea of the MORSE courses so has gone for MORSE at Warwick (aspirational) and Lancaster (realistic)

He is retaking the Maths A level and is predicted A*. As a pp mentioned Warwick use exactly these circumstances to illustrate their acceptance of resits.

He took the TMUA after doing the AMSP course and having tutoring from a student at Lancaster Uni. He is hopeful (but not sure) of scoring enough to overcome the lack of A* prediction in further maths which might cost him an offer from Warwick.

He has also applied to Maths at Bristol and Glasgow.

The 5th choice has been left for a later date depending on the TMUA result and any offers which may come early. The favourite options are Durham, Leeds or Manchester.

This sounds a great plan, OP. Best wishes to your DS.

Dd did very well with maths at Warwick.