Which University to apply to for Maths

[Mumski45]

DS is just starting Yr 13 and has decided to apply to do a Maths degree at Uni starting 2024. He is doing A levels in Maths/F Maths/Physics/Chemistry.

He took Maths at the end of Yr 12 and was hoping for an A star, however he only got an A due to the shifting of grade boundaries. Last year his percentage score was easily an A star but this year he was 2-3% under the boundary which shifted by 9-10%

His predicted grades are Physics A star and Chemistry A but he has no predicted grade for FM as they only start the course this year.

He is also planning to take the TMUA in October.

He is wondering whether it is worth him still applying for the Uni's such as Durham/Warwick/Manchester/Edinburgh etc which require an A star in either Maths or FMaths or whether he should concentrate on those which only need an A and if you have any experience or knowledge of Maths at Uni which ones would you recommend.

TIA

Neighbours son is doing Maths at Glasgow and loves the course and the uni - loads of stuff on, far too busy to come home apparently.

University just looks at grade achieved. They don't discriminate if you took 1 attemp or 3.

@caringcarer Imperial explicitly say that they count resits only when there are mitigating circumstances. Oxford and Cambridge have no university-wide policy against them, but leave it to individual Colleges. Most of the Colleges assess the resits in light of the circumstances.

Happily for the OP’s DS, Warwick will accept the best result achieved during normal schooling and explicitly mention a resit during Y13 of a Y12 exam as a valid resit. Bristol, now the other very highly ranked English uni, accepts resits on an equal basis.

So do some of the less elite English unis requiring A*. But there is always discretion. My STEM school requires A star in Maths and generally allows resits. As a former admissions tutor, I feel confident that I speak for my colleagues in saying I would have concerns about an applicant who required three or four attempts to reach this standard.
They might thrive better in a less intense environment.

Thanks all for your input. Some interesting thoughts on resits and options for living at home when going to a local uni.

Personally I think DS would be better in halls at least for the first year. DH has a tendency to get over involved in his life and I think DS needs to step away to become more independent.

With respect to the resit my thoughts are that if he isn't predicted an A star by his sixth form then he won't get offers from unis which require it anyway. I expect the courses will be competitive and unlikely to appear in clearing once he has the result. The only way to benefit from it would be to apply again after he had his results which would mean taking a year out which I understand is also not encouraged for maths based degrees.

I think there are many good uni's open to him with an A. We have now also learnt that the prediction for FM will be an A based on his result in the Maths. He could try to appeal this but I don't think that would do DS any favours.

@poetryandwine Neither of my Dc went to Oxbridge. I have consistently said on this thread that there are other options. However living at home is not possible for all students and the brighter ones really could be looking at third best. So great if you live near a top tier uni and want to line at home if you don’t, then there’s harder choices to be made. I can see not all students are ready to move away but I do believe it allows them to develop without parents overseeing their life. I do think that has value. It might also open up their worlds a bit more.

The great thing about maths is there are lots of great maths departments. I think mn always mentions the top 4 but clearly maths grads thrive elsewhere.

I stand corrected on stats. I thought 18 year old starts was nearer 40%. However I didn’t look up the exact figures. 50% is too high in my view.

Don't obsess about the "top" unis. My son didn't do further maths A level so was always going to be excluded from the likes of Durham, Oxbridge, Warwick, etc. But he got three A*s (Maths, Physics and Economics) and did Maths at Lancaster where he has just got a First.

Not going to one of the prestige unis hasn't hindered him. He got 4 job offers for actuarial graduate jobs in leading UK firms (PWC, Aviva, NFU, Lloyds), and has just started at one of them this week.

He graduate scheme colleagues (around 10 of them started this week) are from a mixture of Leeds, York, Bath - none of them are from Oxbridge, Durham or Warwick!).

How about imperial?

When I looked at admissions stats, the most competitive 6 (COWI + UCL and durham) were heavily oversubscribed with much lower offer rates. All the others made most applicants conditional offers. So outside those 6, providing the predicted grades match their standard offer you could reasonably expect an offer (it is not guaranteed but much more likely than not). Resits are not always accepted - some do, some don't.

Hi @Mumski45, glad our collective posts have been helpful. If your DC (and maybe DH?) is fretting about FM predicted grade, then again let the TMUA result 'do the guiding and talking'. If the result is very strong then it shows him, school and unis that the A in Maths last summer was not reflective of his underlying abilities. If the result is more modest then it is a useful indicator that he may be more suited to other unis flagged and he can be content that is a sensible path. All roads do not have to lead to Warwick et al.

@threefiftysix Did you read the thread? Is Imperisl realistic?

@poetryandwine Heres the UCAS figures. Are they wrong?

Have you looked at Sheffield university, they have an engineering specialism and a highly regarded maths department too.

Seen posts about MORSE. Great degree, wish it had been around sooner. It's often pooh-poohed on here but Southampton also offer that course.

Thank you @Badbadbunny that is very reassuring. Whilst his strength appears to be in applied maths and physics he has been looking at actuarial careers as a possibility for the future.

@GalaxyStars thank you I will suggest he puts Sheffield on his list to research.

@PerpetualOptimist thank you that sounds like a good suggestion and I think this is the approach DS would like to take. He enjoyed the AMSP session last night and is having weekly sessions with a phd student at Lancaster to prepare for it. 🤞🏼this will guide him to the right course.

I’m sure some posters only look at C,O,W,I but most are more realistic and look at others. Sheffield is brilliant for engineering and Bristol have some exciting innovation courses. It’s always worth looking at a wide range of unis.

Imperial is, with no disrespect, not realistic. They are heavily oversubscribed and require A-star at single and further maths. Also the total number of places offered by COWI to UK-domiciled students is between 500 and 600 - that's for the entire country. Imperial fill about 60% of their places with overseas students (so also do UCL).
The issue of large numbers of places being given to overseas students while UK domiciled students are overlooked is a whole separate debate. What can be said with reasonable certainty is that the top half-dozen institutions are so oversubscribed with A-star candidates that an applicant who has obtained an A in maths without mitigating circumstances would be wiser to allocate their 5 UCAS choices elsewhere.

Yes, @Phos, you are right Southampton and Lancaster offer MORSE as well as Warwick (and Cardiff MORS, no E). It should be noted that Southampton's course has a high mandatory element of Maths&Stats (as the lead dept is Maths). Lancaster's version allows for a much lower Maths&Stats element as the lead dept is the School of Management. For completeness, Warwick's version is led by Statistics (if I remember rightly) and allows a lot of flexibility on Y2 onwards but is still very heavily quantitative throughout. So the same label for each of these courses but potentially different ingredients in the respective tins.

@Mumski45 and @TizerorFizz I only mentioned that living at home can work in support of @losingtheplot999 whose DS had been criticised on this forum for turning down Warwick. I never suggested it for @Mumski45 ‘s DS. I don’t know how it became such a focal point.

@TizerorFizz our statistics seem compatible. I quoted those for 19 year olds, you for 18 year olds. The difference is under 10% and that seems about right to me.

@Mumski45 I second @GalaxyStars on the idea that Sheffield is definitely worth investigating, and @PerpetualOptimist that the TMUA result should inform the choices DS makes. I was interested to see that Warwick explicitly mentions his situation as the example where they are happy to accept a Y13 resit (discussed above). However I appreciate that now the PGs have changed.

You mentioned that DS may be interested in the actuarial profession (which BTW consistently has outstanding job satisfaction). He can prepare with a Single Hons Maths or Stats degree or various Joint Hons programmes. These preserve other options.

However if he wishes to study Actuarial Science specifically (usually within a School of Maths) it is worth calling his attention to Heriot Watt. Students who get their degree from an accredited AS programme are exempt from a set of the UK actuarial exams and thus command a higher starting salary in the UK. Heriot Watt has the only internationally accredited programme in the UK, to my knowledge specifically with the US and Canada. This means that the exemptions transfer. It is the UK’s only superstar, actuarially speaking.

Of course Actuarial graduates are qualified to do many of the same things as other Maths graduates, and I believe many move into different roles over time.

A maths degree can be tailored to all sorts of careers. It’s hugely versatile and Dc might change their minds when options become available.

My husband and a few of our friends did maths at Durham, they are now actuaries. Loved the uni and the city.

@Badbadbunny

Funny that you mention Durham in the same tier as Oxbridge and Warwick. While Durham is a great all rounder, its Maths department is no better than UCL etc. It's Imperial that's in the same tier instead; that is why COWI is a frequent acronym to denote the top 4 Maths unis and has been used in the thread.

What kind of maths does he like? Pure, applied, with statistical, engineering twists?

I did a maths degree which in hindsight was a mistake, I should have done engineering maths. I attempted to broaden out in my last year, with experimental design and I did the financial maths option which I hated but usefully helped me realise my interests didn't lie in that direction. I suspect nearly every university has a maths course, and if DS doesn't know which flavour he's interested in, find one which offers a range so hopefully there's potential to move around (so changing from a BA to a BSc)

I mostly agree with the post from @curiousllama above. The COWI elitism is based in the historical and ongoing research strength of those SoMs, which has allowed them to attract the top students for a ling time. These students then form homogeneous cohorts who are relatively easy to please, and virtuous circles are formed.

@curiousllama is also correct thar the likes of Durham , UCL and I would add St Andrews have long been considered elite by segments of UG Maths applicants on the basis of their reputations for historical excellence in respect of the student experience, with nothing like the tesearch power of COWI.

But now it gets interesting. In the 2021 Research Exercise Framework (the latest) the top 5 SoMs were (and I forget the COI order in the top 3 positions) Cambridge, Oxford, Imperial, Bristol, Glasgow. Warwick was 6th, Lancaster 7th. The newcomers are G and L which have also had excellent reputations for the student experience in recent years.

@poetryandwine

I hope it's ok to momentarily derail this thread.

May I ask your opinion on Edinburgh University for an integrated masters in computer science (MInf)?

My son is off to Edinburgh for freshers week tomorrow and I guess I'm looking for reassurance that he's picked a great course. He's particularly interested in AI and machine learning. He also had an integrated masters offer from Durham.

Thank you.