Better results - change of heart?

[mondaytosunday]

I can't remember what I've said on which thread so starting my own. Please hang in there, it's slightly convoluted. My daughter is doing an Art Foundation course next year and will apply to UCAS this December/January.
She has done better than predicted, though it's no surprise to me as I thought one of her teachers was harsh. So, predicted A star (Psychology) A (Art) B (History). She got A stars for all, well above the boundary marks, plus A star for her EPQ. So far so good, but here's the dilemma.
She has always wanted to do Animation, has done stuff outside of school (short course at CSM for example), and hasn't wavered for the last couple years. For this you need a good portfolio, you do not need good grades with a few exceptions like Edinburgh, which is not on her list anyway.
But part of her now thinks with her grades maybe she should get an academic degree, as Animation is a tough field, not well paid, an unstable industry, and the future uncertain due to the advances in AI - especially as she has four to five years of study ahead first (with the added debt).
She confessed last night that while she has always been partly 'in love' with the idea of going to an old academic university (like the physical look of Oxbridge but not Oxbridge), she was never sure she was smart enough. She also, after working very very hard to get her grades, is not in love with the idea of yet more essays and exams - though that may be as they are so recent. She also does not have an alternative career plan, though is interested in Human Geography/Politics.
Now I grew up in the US and there you can apply to as many unis as you want for anything - so History at one, MFL at another, Art at yet another and so on. You apply individually so write separate personal statements.
So this is it; how can she apply to both an art school that will basically prepare her for working in an uncertain, low pay industry, but which she is passionate about (though on her terms), and also apply to an academic uni without a clear idea of what she wants to do after? It's not a case of head over heart - she finds both very appealing for different reasons, not a small part being how she sees herself as a person. I suggested applying to three art schools and two academic ones, but that doesn't really give much choice. And I don't know how quick universities are in offering to those with grades in hand - she would need to submit a portfolio to the art schools usually within a couple weeks to a month from application. And if rejected from one university can you then add another (and does this have to be before the January deadline)? Plus her Personal Statement would be quite tricky!
We have two more Open Days for art schools lined up, and now I'm wondering if we need to add others for consideration, but which ones? She hasn't looked at any academic universities yet as her results have put her in a bit of a spin.
Should she just choose one direction and go with that? She is so afraid of making the wrong choice! Has anyone's child applied to such diverse courses at the same time? And how soon do the universities offer with grades in hand? And which unis offer good Social/Policial science degrees? And what careers would that lead to? She wants to work to 'change things for the better' if she goes that route (and make a decent living doing it). Thanks for getting this far!

I am 40 so this was over 20 years ago but I took a year out after my a levels and had a couple of wobbles about what I wanted to do. I phoned a couple of unis that I had not applied to through UCAS to discuss courses I had not applied to and because I had good a level grades (not as good as your daughter's) they were all happy to offer me a place.

This is just to say that there does seem to be some flexibility within the system regarding applications.

I would say that nowadays (regrettably) university has to be a sensible financial decision as it just costs so much.

Hello @Soma! I think Scotland is too far away. She once considered Edinburgh (she liked the look of the buildings but I think the animation is in a modern one) and I thought Dundee might be good option but it's too far. She liked Falmouth but again the six hour drive! She's a real homebody and wants the option of coming home for the odd weekend - we also have four pets which she adores.
Yesterday she said the whole thing is stressing her out so she's decided not to think about it! She really does need to crack on with her summer project so I'm leaving it for now. I'll still do some research, though she hasn't given me much direction in terms of what actual academic degree she might possibly want, other than vague ideas, though a few she doesn't want, like History, which she thinks will be very dry.
She did say she thinks she can finesse it to apply to both vía UCAS, disregarding the sensible idea of coming down on the side of one or the other option!

@Akiddleetivy2woodenchu we missed the AUB open Day this summer due to illness but we were curious about one thing you may be able to answer.
The emphasis there appears very much teamwork and I know the final film is voted on ( so not every student gets to do their own idea) and they share different roles. But how does this work in terms of a final show reel? It seems odd to have your final film but you only did part of the work? It probably won't be your style let alone story idea.
@visiondivisionrevision I'll look further in to Cambridge and the short course she did at CSM was taught by one of the Animation masters teachers, who she grilled on the last day!

@mondaytosunday she sounds amazing! She'll do well whatever she decides.

My DD recently graduated from one of the best art schools in the country with a first. Her specialty is concept art for films and games. Due to AI it has made jobs extremely scarce and even though she is super talented there is barely any work around (including overseas). One of her friends did an animation degree (with VFX) some years ago and gets very sporadic work. It’s all freelance so no steady income.

She has now decided to do teacher training and do art as a side line as she cannot make a sustainable living otherwise.

The reality is, in the art world, a qualification is almost irrelevant- it’s all about the quality of your work / portfolio. It might be better for her to do a part time / online animation course in her spare time to learn the skills and use the student loan for tuition fees to take an academic degree. That will give her options for the future.

I think getting work is a consideration. If a Dc was going to uni anyway, one assumes cost to parents has been factored in. Art and Performance has the worst return on any degree investment. Well no return actually. You are out of pocket but then you won’t pay fees or maintenance back but at least you might have enjoyed your degree. If work is important, do something else. DD1 had various friends doing art and performance degrees. Not one works in a field connected to their degree now. All were supported by parents for years after their degrees as they tried to make it work. So parents have to be on the loop and maybe, in the end, have tough discussions.

Ugh @JediKnightingale she is adamant that she doesn't want to freelance! Despite the fact her aunt worked in Hollywood as a special effects editor and all film work is done on a freelance basis.
Her ideal would be to work full time in a studio as part of a team. The CSM woman did say her own work was mainly freelance and even worse (from my daughter's POV) from home. And I didn't point out to her at the time but worth noting that there's probably a financial reason why the woman was teaching too.
I think success in many fields requires a certain ruthlessness. She can be very stubborn and even if shaking in her boots has stood up to teachers if she feels her artistic integrity is being challenged. But while she has steely determination not sure she has the ego and grit to make it to the heights she aspires to. She is quite offended by people who don't play fair - and you can't be Ms Nice to one and all when trying to make it - and she's never been good at putting herself out there. She's great at beavering away on her own but is not a leader - though her experience of starting a magazine club and running it on her own required exactly that, but she didn't enjoy that aspect!
She may surprise me yet (im surprised she is so keen to work in a team), but character doesn't change much, I guess you just care less about what other people think as you get older.
On top of it, and she does realise this, her interest is 2D animation, which while experiencing a bit of a resurgence, is not what is in demand now. Not interested in game design or 3D, CGI, esport or VR.
What it comes down to, with youthful naivety, an animation career has got to be her way or no way. And she's now thinking it's not going to go her way.

Agree @TizerorFizz and that's exactly what worries her.

She's said she will reach out to some of the animators she follows on insta and ask for the reality. She says some are really good but they do mention having to take other jobs to support themselves. Still doesn't get her closer to figuring out what she might do instead!

@mondaytosunday I helped a friend's DC write a late personal statement for a social science with a modern language degree earlier this year and they got five offers. It's not impossible to craft a good statement which combines more than one subject, just experiment. Can your DD's school not help? At one of DCs school, (also independent) they support them until they are 25, so I would explore what help her school can give her with her applications. Even if she does an early application, she only has to include one university to start with and add the others as and when she has made a decision.

To a lesser extent we had some similar discussions with both of mine, as they are extremely capable musicians but with broad academic interests and abilities. Their high results were expected from earlier though / appropriately predicted by their teachers. With the younger one in particular initial conversations before choosing A levels started from "I want to write music" leading to well, how might you develop a career that will allow you to do that. His other major interest, maths, has won out for the time being as much because you can keep doing music while you study maths but it would be much more difficult to keep doing maths while studying music.

The older one has just done her first year of an English degree - on a predominantly coursework base course. Interestingly, the point at which she really started getting great marks for her essays was when she started working her music interests into them. (referencing early music texts in an essay on Milton for example)

When she was looking into university courses, looking in detail at the syllabus and course structure proved very useful in narrowing down what she really wanted to do. If you can support your daughter to read widely around a range of potential courses - including History - she may find some surprises but also stumble upon something that feels right to her.

Finally, remember that she does not have to put 5 choices on her UCAS form all at once, especially applying with grades in hand. If any courses have early deadlines eg Cambridge if she decides to give it a go, meet them, continue to research options, progress her Art work and when she has found another course that feels right add it to her application. I don't know what the deadlines are like for the animation courses she'd planned to apply for, but perhaps apply to one academic / one art course to start with and tweak the rest a month or two later?

Good luck - even if she sticks to her original plans having a good think about alternatives will help her down the track.

@Soma You have the magic words in there! MFL. That’s an under subscribed subject at lots of unis so they are highly likely to offer. Not sure DD in question has that option. Anything with art is a lottery regarding work and I totally get that wfh isn’t what a young person wants. It’s lonely.

This might need to be balanced against not doing any more essays! What’s the worst scenario?

Oh no she quite enjoys essay writing! Just was happy to stop for a bit after A levels. We have looked at a few degree options today
and we have had a fun afternoon reviewing Cambridge colleges - anything vaguely modern is off the list! Not that she thinks she has much of a chance - but the idea of living in one of those old stone or brick buildings has rather entranced her (Human, Social and Political Science is the degree she likes the sound of).
Yes @Soma her school will definitely help her. She recalls actually telling the receptionist that she may well be back!
@TizerorFizz She did get a distinction in her spoken GCSE German and an 8, but I don't think she wants to take it further, though there may be an opportunity to go for a month to Berlin with her FAD course.

You can study a MFL and spend a year abroad with lots of degrees now. Bristol allows students to study MFL from gcse level alongside their degree and do third year abroad . The MFL isn’t part of the degree but gives an added dimension. I would say she has quite a few options if she’s starting to look at essay subjects.

UCL arts and sciences lets you study fine art modules along side lots of other subjects. Also could your dd do an art foundation and take that time to explore what degrees might suit, agree with others that liberal arts might be a good choice.

There is a very unusual course run by Edinburgh University in conjunction with Edinburgh College of Art, it's been going for decades. It's a mixed academic /studio based Fine Art degree that is 5 years long ( or it was in my day) to accommodate doing a proper dissertation and a full degree show. You can choose modules from across the humanities at EU to study alongside art school modules, however I don't think you can choose design subjects like animation.
Saying that, DH is an animation director but studied painting not animation, he taught himself animation, it's never been an issue that he didn't have a degree in it. He's not very positive about the animation industry ATM, it was very dependant on complicated EU co productions for funding and that has ended cos Brexit. Also AI....

When my DD was first applying to unis, we looked long and hard for a course that combined something arty with MFL. We didn't find a single one. Basically if you did a degree with the art faculty, there was no combining with any other faculty at all.

That was 15 years ago so things may have changed, but I doubt it's changed massively.

Someone above talked about doing maths and keeping music on the side, rather than vv, and that's something else we talked at length about- but my DD felt that if she was working a 9-5 doing something non-arty, it would not leave enough time for her muse to flourish and whilst she could still do a bit of art at weekends, that wasn't enough to scratch the itch.

No offence OP but choosing a university based on how it looks isn't a great idea. Most of the time you will be inside the building... and if you're focusing on learning you'll barely pay attention to the surroundings!

Animation is a good career if you go into a course also applicable to , say video games. I know quite a few people in the industry all got jobs after graduating. Also if she can take a couple of programming modules on the side she's well place to go into an IT career, which not only pays well but is also trying to encourage more women into the industry!

Even if the doesn't want to program there are so many things UI, UX design that are helped by having an artistic eye.

Far, far, more employable than a 'generic humanities' subject I'd say.

It depends where you get the humanities degree from and what you plan to do afterwards. Obviously plenty of people do very well. Obviously programming is employable but it’s certainly not for everyone.

Oh no @OleMioSole of course she won't choose on looks alone! But if presented with 25 (college) options and five are in 60s concrete buildings as opposed to 400 year old stone , I know where I'd be looking! You cannot say that the whole architectural atmosphere of places like Cambridge and Oxford don't count! But Bath (another one she is considering) is definitely modern.
She's not at all interested in computers - drawing is her thing, which is why Animation is even more precarious a profession as it's 2D, not gaming, not esport, not 3D. Obviously even 2D is eventually on computer but they start with a drawing. Certainly not interested in IT or coding.
She IS interested in social anthropology and sociology. To a lesser extent politics. Social injustice and a growing awareness of how inequitable the world is.
@Wbeezer that's interesting about your husband. When you look at the backgrounds of some prominent animators they came from diverse backgrounds (and her own A level art teacher has a degree in engineering). Studio Ghibli's founder has a degree in Political Science. Painting or fine art is not her thing either, but she is thinking about how to integrate animation - cartoons (printed and animated) as political commentary has a long history, for example.

I'd definitely look into universities that include art Schools then, like Edinburgh, and check which modules run by the art school are available to other students.
That's how my husband started in animation, doing early primitive political cartoon style animations for the Guardian website in the 90s.
As a profession it is one of the hardest creative professions IMO, very long hours tired to a computer, RSI, dealing with difficult corporate clients, trying to communicate with studios in India and Malaysia, typical freelancer problems - not enough work or too much, lack of pension and holidays, everyone works from home now so rather isolating. DH has managed to earn enough to support a family, just, but he is in the ( and we have a tiny mortgage by today's standards) top bracket of industry earnings as he has nearly 30 years experience and he is worn out! Streaming means no royalties and repeat fees anymore...I could go on.
Sorry to be depressing.
I'd advise developing drawing skills, draw cartoons or online comics, so stuff for ' zines and student media, teach yourself animation from online tutorials but do an academic degree if you are genuinely interested in that area too. Then just see what develops.

Thanks @Wbeezer. She does stuff like that already (taken animation course outside of school, created a school magazine and did all the layout and illustrations and production etc). She will discover a lot during her FAD course too, and despite advise to the contrary is thinking three academic and two art school applications, so not closing the door in anything yet.
It's a shame - all these kids going into animation (photography, art et al). But that's the problem with degrees that aren't like medicine or law that (can) lead to an in demand job.
A contemporary to me did Classics at Bristol and then had a career in film production (she had great family contacts, it has to be said). You never know where you'll end up!

There are also lots of IT careers that don't involve coding. Like UX design. Or project management.
For the latter though any degree is acceptable.

Look at it this way -unless she has her heart set on 'social policy' research graduate jobs that take 'any' degree don't care whether it's animation or social policy. So she might as well do something fun, and worry about jobs later.

'Academic' degrees don't give you an edge btw unless you want a research role having worked in both finance and tech there are all sorts. Music, Fashion, Dance some of the degrees I've seen (and recruited).

Academic degrees certainly do give an edge in lots of roles. Why would anyone bother with LSE, Imperial, Durham or Oxbridge if they don’t.

You can convert to law from any degree. 50% of lawyers don’t have law degrees. However few would have a fashion or dance degree. DD has a friend who is a barrister with a music degree from Oxford. However that’s got a strong academic requirement. The standard humanities degrees from the top unis do keep many doors open. But the student needs more then a degree to get through the door.

Look at what the degree might lead to. Lovely old buildings at the uni are nice to see but employers won’t care one fig. You also might never get a social policy job with that degree. These jobs take far more to get with numerous hurdles to get over. Few get them!

HSPS at Cambridge would be a very useful degree indeed. It's flexible and they can take modules across a range of departments. It's competitive though - something like 1 in 10 offer rate these days.