Better results - change of heart?

[mondaytosunday]

I can't remember what I've said on which thread so starting my own. Please hang in there, it's slightly convoluted. My daughter is doing an Art Foundation course next year and will apply to UCAS this December/January.
She has done better than predicted, though it's no surprise to me as I thought one of her teachers was harsh. So, predicted A star (Psychology) A (Art) B (History). She got A stars for all, well above the boundary marks, plus A star for her EPQ. So far so good, but here's the dilemma.
She has always wanted to do Animation, has done stuff outside of school (short course at CSM for example), and hasn't wavered for the last couple years. For this you need a good portfolio, you do not need good grades with a few exceptions like Edinburgh, which is not on her list anyway.
But part of her now thinks with her grades maybe she should get an academic degree, as Animation is a tough field, not well paid, an unstable industry, and the future uncertain due to the advances in AI - especially as she has four to five years of study ahead first (with the added debt).
She confessed last night that while she has always been partly 'in love' with the idea of going to an old academic university (like the physical look of Oxbridge but not Oxbridge), she was never sure she was smart enough. She also, after working very very hard to get her grades, is not in love with the idea of yet more essays and exams - though that may be as they are so recent. She also does not have an alternative career plan, though is interested in Human Geography/Politics.
Now I grew up in the US and there you can apply to as many unis as you want for anything - so History at one, MFL at another, Art at yet another and so on. You apply individually so write separate personal statements.
So this is it; how can she apply to both an art school that will basically prepare her for working in an uncertain, low pay industry, but which she is passionate about (though on her terms), and also apply to an academic uni without a clear idea of what she wants to do after? It's not a case of head over heart - she finds both very appealing for different reasons, not a small part being how she sees herself as a person. I suggested applying to three art schools and two academic ones, but that doesn't really give much choice. And I don't know how quick universities are in offering to those with grades in hand - she would need to submit a portfolio to the art schools usually within a couple weeks to a month from application. And if rejected from one university can you then add another (and does this have to be before the January deadline)? Plus her Personal Statement would be quite tricky!
We have two more Open Days for art schools lined up, and now I'm wondering if we need to add others for consideration, but which ones? She hasn't looked at any academic universities yet as her results have put her in a bit of a spin.
Should she just choose one direction and go with that? She is so afraid of making the wrong choice! Has anyone's child applied to such diverse courses at the same time? And how soon do the universities offer with grades in hand? And which unis offer good Social/Policial science degrees? And what careers would that lead to? She wants to work to 'change things for the better' if she goes that route (and make a decent living doing it). Thanks for getting this far!

My friend was admitted to the MA in Animation at Central Saint Martins with no formal art training (had studied Journalism and worked for The Guardian), so for your daughter's sake know that she doesn't have to worry so much about making the wrong choice. It's always possible to pursue animation, even if she chooses a different undergraduate course.

Having said that, she is right that the money isn't great in that profession and even the most talented are having to find work outside of it to keep their heads afloat during the cost of living crisis.

What she will have to do, however, is decide on what she wants to study before she fills out her UCAS form. Hedging her bets by trying to apply to some art schools and some more academic courses will not be a successful strategy.

What might work for her is an interdisciplinary degree that allows her to explore her interests in art and social science at the same time. Examples include the BASc in Arts and Sciences at UCL or the BA Creative Arts and Humanities, also at UCL.

Many graduate careers - Law, Accounting, Management, Civil Service, Consulting - are open to graduates from any discipline. Whatever she chooses, she will have plenty of future options.

Thanks. Yes she was saying herself that a degree isn't essential for animation, and she does a bit on her own anyway, I guess it's the contacts one makes at uni plus access to the latest software.
But ok that's what I really was trying to discover - it probably is not a good idea to try and spilt her limited UCAS application choices.
I was just looking at Bath for Social Policy and of course their last open day is September 9! If she's to look at academic unis before applying she'll have to get her skates on.
All this is further complicated by a recent diagnosis of MS, and she's only starting the medication next week.
Hopefully her FAD course will also help in her decision.

I would look at academic or art. Not both. As she’s no longer at school can you not select a few unis to look at? Certainly trawl through on line with subjects she’s qualified to study. This won’t be MFL or geography.

Jobs? Massive competition for good jobs so a lot will come down to what she wants and how she gets through assessment tests. Look at the Complete University Guide for league tables of courses. She’s certainly ok with her results but is her illness going to limit her options?

Hi @mondaytosunday, I know I've already given some advice on another thread, but I can say that most universities reply very quickly to "Post-qualification applications."

I also know that, especially at the smaller art schools, admissions tutors who evaluate the portfolios are highly involved in the process and get to know the candidates' applications better than in larger subjects. I am willing to bet that if your DD were to phone and ask them, or send a polite email (once the current clearing cycle is done!), they would be perfectly fine with accepting a second, different, personal statement sent directly to them. UCAS allows this at university discretion.

The problem is though that are applicants still not limited to 5 choices? So what split?

I wouldn't waste a student loan on an academic degree with no clear idea what she wants to do afterwards. I was conned into doing that in 2006 "because you're so bright". I ended up with a useless 2:1 from York in History and a job in McDonalds for years out of uni (and £20k of debt) when I'd really wanted to go to drama school and was talked out of it due to good grades. IMO, she'd be better sticking with the plan with a view to a career she enjoys afterwards.

Hi OP. I have one doing a degree at UAL and another one doing a social science at Cambs so I understand how different the application processes are!

Your DD's grades are obviously excellent and, as a post-results applicant with grades in hand, she could well have a shot at Cambs. Has she thought about the 'Education BA' there? It's not for would-be teachers (well not necessarily). It looks more at the psychology of learning and education systems (I think!) and there are three routes within it - social sciences, drama / creative and another one I can't remember. I was just thinking with her psychology grade she may find this interesting as a course that could be academic and creative? No reason why she couldn't approach drama from an animation perspective?

Also, at any uni there will be all sorts of societies / opportunities / connections for creatives - who knows?

Then after that, she could go and do a Masters in animation (Kingston or UAL?). Film school?

With all that behind her, if she didn't get a job in animation, there are loads of other roles - teaching, directing, producing, art / creative therapist? A Cambs degree should stand her in good stead and give her broader options?

Otherwise, what about liberal arts degrees which are very flexible? There is nowhere she can't apply to with her grades.

@monpetitlapin That says more about you then the degree though. History is a good degree for employment. I don’t see Oxbridge as the holy grail but there’s certainly liberal arts degrees plus many others that might be of interest.

Thanks everyone. Before she even chose her A levels we talked about what else she might do as a back up and Social Anthropology was the closest she could come up with, and therefore changed from Biology A level to Psychology before she started at Sixth Form. She likes History as she thinks it informs who we are today, Psychology she found fairly easy but isn't interested in it as a subject to take any further, nor History for that matter.
I looked at the Human, Social and Political Science degree at Cambridge @visiondivisionrevision which seemed interesting but not sure she wants to go through that application process, though I admit that's just from anecdotal reports on MN rather than any actual research in to what it involves. No school now to help her with that.
@monpetitlapin this comes from her - I'm certainly not talking her out of anything. And I don't think many kids do know what they eventually want to do necessarily, partly as without life experience they don't know what's actually out there.
@TizerorFizz I agree, it seems sensible to go for one or the other. I've seen a few courses that might suit - like the Sociology and Social Science at Bath, there's Human Geography at York (it might need a Geography A level though) and so on. And yes as mentioned above the Open days are soon so she needs to start thinking! And no, her MS shouldn't be a factor, at least not in respect to limiting her choices.
Point taken @PhotoDad and as mentioned in the other thread there were plenty of Animation courses from four of the universities she is considering in clearing so even at this late stage (next year) she could probably get in to one should she again change her mind, though not the top one (Uni of Herts).
So far it's just been me looking at different possibilities as she only threw this out after her results yet I'm aware time is passing. It's now up to her to do some of her own research. She may well stick to original path!

UCL Anthropology grad here! Such a rewarding degree. Lots of other great anthro departments in UK too - Manchester, St. Andrews, Aberdeen

Geography usually requires geography. Maybe she should play to her strengths snd History certainly opens up possibilities.

I would strongly suggest she does a Morrisby test. That can really help pin point a career based on interests, even dislikes, and aptitude. There might be subjects like History of Art she might like. Many humanities subjects are not directly linked to a job, and won’t guarantee one, but you do study what you really like for three years and it gives thinking time. Plus time to build a cv snd do some relevant work. There are careers fairs and employers turn up with info. Ideas and goals can change. So I would give an academic course a go.

History of Art could prove interesting. Depending on where you study, a lot of it is about the "social anthropology" of art, if that makes sense; how and why artwork is/has been produced and valued. One of the great second wave feminist theorists (Linda Nochlin) was an Art Historian.

I also agree that for very many jobs, the actual degree doesn't seem to matter that much! But I draw a slightly different conclusion.

My own DD and I had a similar conversation before she decided to do Illustration (although she's not as academic as yours, and her grades ended up lower), especially about the possibility of going into art/design after an unrelated first degree. She decided that if she wants to have a shot of getting a (low paid, precarious) job in the field, then spending three years full-time honing her skills in a structured way, and getting industry experience and contacts, would be the better path. You will know yourself how much of art/design skill is based on practice, practice, practice. Having three uninterrupted years with every facility you might need at hand, surrounded by similar students, is something that you'll never get outside of art school. Of course it's a throw of the dice, but "you've got to be in it to win it."

That is purely what worked for us, though.

She also, after working very very hard to get her grades, is not in love with the idea of yet more essays and exams - though that may be as they are so recent.

She really shouldn't be seduced by the idea that she's "wasting" her A Stars by studying Animation. Oxford & Cambridge teach in the Humanities mostly via a weekly written essay - 3 terms of 8 weeks over 3 years - count the number of essays!

IME (30 years teaching in a so-called "soft" subject in the Humanities) students do best at what they really really want to do.

Her "academic" ability will shine through and she may find that in a course she WANTS to do, with less self-doubt about her abilities, she starts to move towards theoretical or historical studies. She can do this, by her optional module choices in a programme, by her choices in things like her dissertation, and also by opting for a more theoretical Masters if she wants to go on to basic postgraduate studies.

But please no pressure on her to do something more "worthwhile" or not "waste" her A Levels. Her initial choice is not a waste.

As a DD who did an arts type course, getting work is a nightmare. She never really did. That brings its own stress. She retrained to do something else.

A gap year gives time for maturity. She might even see the benefits of essays again! A means to an end. However she knows her own mind but she can at least do a careers test which might give a steer.

My DD is just about to go into her second year at Durham studying Combined Honours in Social Science, focusing on Geography and Anthroplogy. She also took a Sociology module in her first year. Might be worth a look?

DD2 studied animation at AUB. Her offer was AAB, so quite a tough ask. She’s also walked into an animation job straight after graduation. This has been her passion since she was 10, and she is very talented (those who aren’t talented struggle as competition for jobs is tough, and amazingly, some do graduate who can’t draw well). Equally, with her A level results and the subjects, she could have chosen an academic degree.

I would be very wary of taking a huge change in direction because she got good grades. Also the ability to get those grades won’t go away due to studying animation - that ability will carry forward with her in whatever subject she enters.

@TizerorFizz good idea about the test I'll have her look into it.
@FarEast I can't emphasise enough that this is all her idea - apparently always brewing in the back of her mind but as she was at a selective school with some powerhouse students (and possibly her 'I'm a bit worried about you' History teacher), she doubted whether she had it in her to do an academic degree to the standard acceptable to herself. Kids have self doubt despite the 8s and 9s at GCSE.
I certainly don't think she would be wasting her grades no matter what she does. Until she said it herself I thought she was set on animation. My own nature is to take an idea and run with it - I've done a lot more deep diving into alternatives over the last couple days than she has.
I take on board what you all have advised. She knows any creative field is a risk - and she's not sure the degree would be as valued in a non creative world as, say, a History degree would be. She does read political and historical books for pleasure, it's not a new interest. I think she likes the idea of helping change society, be that as a policy advisor or in the charity sector or whatever. One of her cons about animation is that while it can inspire people, not as directly (there are those idealistic lofty ambitions again).
@PhotoDad she (surprisingly) did not score well in her History entrance exam for sixth form, to the point they advised she do History of Art instead (is that supposed to be easier?). She was adamant that she did not want to do that subject. And despite her History teachers own misgivings, her 196/200 mark has hopefully put rest to any self doubt on her ability.
I haven't spoken to her about any of this the last couple days, after long conversations about it on Thursday/Friday. But another hospital appointment today which inevitably requires a long wait so time to see if she's had any new thoughts!
Thanks again for taking the time.

It is a tricky one, and I know that when my own DD had a sudden change of plans we sat down and talked about it, but the decision had to be hers. All you can do is lay out the pros and cons (and maybe point her in the right direction for some research). She might want to see how that FAD goes, too.

Anything related to politics/society at a top-tier university is going to involve a lot of essay writing and high-stakes exams. Maybe her aversion is a reaction to the pressure of A-levels, but it's a very relevant point. My DD is quite indignant that she has to write coursework essays along with producing a portfolio for each module, but there are no exams. But that's what makes it a degree rather than a vocational qualification, which does keep options open for Grad Schemes later on. (Not that she's aiming for those, but that's another discussion.)

Thanks @PhotoDad. She actually likes writing essays, so think she'd get back into that without issue. She said today she's worried about wasting her time with sn animation degree if she can't be sure that 10-15 years down the line she would be making her own films. Telling her that no one knows the future so start with step one is falling on deaf ears.
Been to the hospital and have left her at a charity shop!

Scored yet another plaid pleated mini skirt a la Ali MacGraw - we watched Love Story last night so she has found her style icon.

@mondaytosunday Good for her! Hope all well at the hospital. The way DD sees it is that going to art school doesn't guarantee that you will get a job in art, but not going to art school almost guarantees that you won't. Obviously, opinions vary on that.

No practical advice, I'm sorry. But if she really is arty, and it's always been her dream, then I think she should follow her dream.

My daughter was always arty (asked for a trip to the local art gallery for her 4th birthday, won various art prizes throughout childhood etc). She wanted to do a 2 year art foundation course after GCSE but I insisted she did A levels, you know, "something to fall back on". So that's what she did, during which time she realised the precariousness of the art world and decided to do a more traditional subject at uni.

She lasted a month at uni; she was utterly utterly miserable and left the course. Took a year out and did various projects, including lots of art; did the 1 yr art foundation course; went to "Art college" (aka university) and got a 1st class degree.

She doesn't actually work in the arts at the moment but has plans for the future. Making art makes her happy and relaxed.

Hi @mondaytosunday waving from the other thread. Have you and your DD considered studying in Scotland, which might give her more flexibility?

Has she looked at liberal arts degrees?