Advice needed on university choices

[Universitynewbie]

Hi, I am looking for some advice for my daughter regarding what universities might not be worth applying to for a state school pupil for courses in the following areas economics/finance/actuarial science. She would love to go to a highly rated university but is worried she won't be considered for some because she is from a state school rather than independent school and doesn't want to waste her choices if there is very little chance of her getting in. Does anyone have any advice or personal experience at all?

Durham does tend usually to be top 10 for Maths (though it has slipped several places to 11th this year in one of the league tables) my thought also is that Durham is close to the Eastern Scottish border! @poetryandwine

Herriot Watt has a good Actuarial Science course - probably possible to switch to birdseed option in first couple of years?

Please look at sutton trust programmes and have your daughter apply for. Summer school or other programme can be fully funded
There is help out there and she meets the criteria
Even if she doesnt want to apply to oxbridge. Summer school will give her confidence
https://www.suttontrust.com/our-programmes/
She can also ask her school .uni adviser to put her forward.
She should get on the email list for when they open next programmes and call them up for adbice on more local events

Broader not birdseed!

@mushroom3 Durham’s place in the league tables is based on its T&L, pastoral support, etc. Nothing wrong with that. It is far from a top REF performer for some time.

OTOH I was just checking the 2021 results for Maths before replying, and St Andrews ranked 18 in the 2021 REF. That’s much higher than I expected and possibly a big improvement from previously!

OP, @cestlavielife has a great idea concerning the Sutton Trust

If she’s interested in Econ look at Strathclyde. It has a fabulous business school and is rated by the Times/Sunday Times Good Uni Guide 2024 as number 5 in the country, above both St Andrews, Glasgow and Edinburgh (and Durham, Exeter, Bath etc )

Well, that suggests that higher proportions of independent school candidates isn’t discrimination, doesn’t it?

If you actually look at the stats of offer rates where they are broken out this way you will generally find that there isn’t a difference. Obviously, contextual offer rates are often higher, but that doesn’t help you.

There are though some complicated dynamics in scotland with scottish caps and very strong widening participation targets which can put independent or even standard state school applicants in a tricky spot.

summary - there is no disadvantage at any uni of being a state school applicant and, even without a contextual flag, in some cases it can be an advantage. So don’t worry.

Please do your research if considering applying to Edinburgh or St. Andrews regarding admissions metrics for the courses you're interested in.

Neither make many offers to Scottish applicants unless you qualify for a contextual offer, and both can take a very long time to reply - early May for a lot of us this year.

I definitely wouldn't recommend applying to both, especially not for a subject in the Economics area - these are generally some of the most ultra competitive for offers

I’m afraid that the Ops Dd is too late to apply to the excellent Sutton Trust programmes. Also it’s very hard to get a place, even if you meet nearly all of the criteria, and it sounds as if the Ops Dd would only meet two.

Excellent point. Their business school is outstanding. Top in the UK for Accountancy (also v strong for Engineering if anyone reading is interested).

I hear you with urging caution, but DS wasn't contextual & got offers from both Edinburgh (in November- as he was an early submission due to Oxford) and St A's (End of May, as said, so far too late). He didn't accept either, but worth mentioning that both do offer.

@Puffalicious Congratulations to your DC on getting both offers - offers from either one were rare in my DS's cohort (NI Grammar School kids with mostly Astars at GCSEs and As at AS)

Sorry I haven't had a proper chance to read all of this thoroughly today but have skimmed and noticed lots more suggestions and advice. Thank you to everyone, it has been incredibly helpful and it will help make a plan of next steps. Some university visits will be the first!

@Universitynewbie, I think your DD has fantastic options, especially as she won't have to pay £9,250 per year in fees if she chooses a university in Scotland.

St Andrews and Edinburgh are very competitive, but these are world-renowned universities and are well worth a shot. Strathclyde and Glasgow are also great options.

Heriot-Watt University is very achievable and has a great reputation for actuarial science. HW is very much a UK centre of excellence for actuarial science and is the only university in the UK recognised by the Society of Actuaries in North America.

I reckon his personal statement (which he really read up on

• kept it very Maths/ research focussed) and a completely stonking reference from his Maths teacher, who kindly said he'd never taught a student like him in his entire career, really swung it. We don't have grammars here in Scotland, most kids just go to their local school, and his is very mixed, with a chunk of homes in the catchment being social housing- perhaps that helped?

It's all such a dark art!

Weird, formatted post there!

I am not sure as haven't found statistics for that. It looks like independent school students are roughly twice as likely to get an A at highers, not sure if this is roughly the same for A levels

This is generally because educational advantage & achievement map onto socio-economic advantage. You could put it crudely to say that there's educational advantage "bought" by paying fees: smaller classes etc etc etc. THe Sutton TRust estimates that in A Levels, a whole grade level can be "bought" this way.

But your logic is wrong - or has a wrong starting point. You are assuming causation where there is none, but it's actually coincidence (or causation in other ways)

If your DD has the Highers results needed - and it looks like she has - then that is what a university looks at. Not what school the applicant went to.

The fact that more fee-paying applicants get places in "top" universities is NOT because "top" universities prefer fee-paying applicants.

They don't.

They prefer high-scoring applicants.

But more high-scoring applicants (proprtionally) come from fee-paying schools. As above, the school fees buy educational advantage.

That all sounds good, open days are happening soon to she needs to get organised. BTW lots of kids now have a parent in tow at open days, so go along too if you can.

Your Dd needs to do a lot of research about all the departments and courses that she is interested in, ideally before she goes. That will help her make better use of the time there.

She wants to look at course structure, topics, options v compulsory modules, methods of teaching and assessment, industry / professional links and accreditation / main areas of research in the department / number of postgrads / are other students mostly local / rUK/ overseas , university facilities , pastoral care, halls of residence, student satisfaction for that department etc .

There will be a chance to talk to current student and teaching staff as well as admissions officers.

All this will tell her a lot more about what it’s like to study there than some outdated and simplistic notions of prestige.

There really is no one best university to go to, even if you have 6As at Higher and 4 As at AH . There’s just the best place for your DD as an individual to study the course that she wants to do.

She might prefer to do a course that’s ranked 3rd in the country instead of 1st , because it has more face face teaching, group work projects and mostly uses course work instead of being heavily weighted towards end of term exams.

Or one that’s 4th but teaches the specialist options that she is interested in and has close links with industry and a chance for placements or a term overseas.

If money is tight she might want to live in a cheaper city, rather than have to work every weekend to pay her rent. Or she might prefer to work and save all summer to afford to live somewhere expensive because she loves the city or the course.

There is no one perfect outcome. It won’t affect her career chances going to no 3 rather than no 1. But it WILL affect her if , for example , she hates the city because it’s too far away from home, is lonely because she is shy and never meets anyone because most of the course is online . Or if she is stressed out by closed book exams and they have them every few weeks or she has to do module she hates for the first two years because there is no choice .