Trying to understand clearing - grades seem so low for Exeter

[Revengeofthepangolins]

DS2 is year 12 so am browsing clearing to try to get some context for next year and to help him chose his UCAS 5.

Exeter asks for AAA for both English and Liberal Arts, but seems to have them in clearing now for ABC and BBC respectively (even lower for internationals). That seems a really surprisingly lower tarrif. Is that normal? And does it suggest that if their offer holders achieve these grades, Exeter will still accept them?

Is that right about oversubscription? Most universities can't be right though. Is it not only RG who oversubscribed, because they get so many applicants. This is why they have been caught out and over-recruited in past couple of years, because so many achieved higher grades.

I think courses in clearing already have vacancies. They didn’t fill up snd they were not over subscribed or sufficient offers made. Dc have decided on firm and insurance now so unis know numbers.

I’m not sure of IB numbers but there were 140,000 Scottish higher pupils. As posters are saying that courses might only have a few spaces, someone with a near miss IB could get in early if the uni allows it. Then A level students get fewer places but they are a much bigger cohort. Could it mean these students are disadvantaged? It would be fair if all clearing applicants were considered via a fair process but as the uni admission phones are red hot come results day, how fair is it? But yes, I guess IB numbers can be small but that makes fairness more important because they are not special.

The number of UK students taking the IB is approx 5000, so nowhere near enough to make a difference statistically.
DS did IB a few years ago. Friends of his who missed the offer generally had to wait til A level results day for a decision from the uni regarding whether they’d take them with those lower grades.

Some unis don't release their clearing spaces until results day as a matter of course, though- you can't really judge who has clearing spaces and who doesn't until A-level results are out.

My understanding is that because of results embargos etc, there's not much unis can do about from the start of next week until results day, anyway.

There are an awful lot of non RG universities which have flagship courses/departments that are generally very well regarded. There are also a lot of non RG unis which are very popular now. Unis like Bath, Lancaster, Loughborough etc aren't Russel Group but I imagine are oversubscribed for a lot of their courses (Those aren't the only examples- but ones that are very popular with the sixth formers I teach).

Equally, in areas like art, or more niche science courses that aren't so widely offered, there may be tighter limits on places, and less unis offering the course, so they can end up very oversubscribed. Something like Marine Biology or Forensic Science is very popular with a lot of students, and isn't so widely offered, so can be very competitive, even at less competitive unis. And because of lab space etc, these will have more limited places than English/History.

It's certainly not the case that only Russel Group unis have oversubscribed courses.

I think it is the case that ALL unis look to take extra students where they can (humanities courses etc) because these are cheap to run and financially support other courses.

@Postapocalypticcowgirl Yes, indeedy... It's an odd unintended consequence of the push to get more students on STEM courses that most universities are now desperate to fill classroom-based humanities subjects, which are way cheaper to run than lab (or studio!) subjects.

Sorry if this has been covered but if the clearing grades are lower does that mean that any students who got offers will be able to get in on those lower grades?
Ds was offered ABB but the clearing offer has been dropped to 96 points, which I believe is CCC?

No. It's not automatic. It's just a guideline, and the uni makes a decision based on actual grades (often there and then). It's more "don't bother ringing if your grades are less than this." Existing offer-holders who miss their grades can certainly ring, but normally the uni will have made the decision already by results day!

It's not guaranteed, but it would also be unusual for a uni to accept lots of students with CCC via clearing, whilst rejecting an offer holder who got, say BBB.

That said, what they're advertising and what they'll actually accept in clearing are two different things.

Sometimes, in this scenario, the student with the offer who got BBB will be left waiting without their offer confirmed because the uni will want to see if they can get anyone "better" via clearing first.

University Admissions is not an exact science.

And when I read on the MN HE forum and some of the posts (not necessarily just on this thread) with people seeing if they can game the system, you might see why from the applicant's side!

But whatever parents & applicants like to think, most - all, really - staff involved in university admissions - both professional administrators & academics - are not in some dark sinister plot to admit unfairly.

We want the best fit for our courses! I don't want to be teaching someone for 3 or 4 years who doesn't want to be there, or for whom it was a forced choice, or who can't quite manage the level of study. Or who thought they'd come to my place for reasons other than they felt it would be the best fit for them, now, and help them towards making the life they want.

We have 3 to 4 years of human interactions with our students. We want hm to be willing, mostly happy, and mostly confident about their course (no-one can be happy & confident all the time!)

5As I often say to my graduating 3rd years, some of whom who get caught in the paralysis of what to do next (I know that feeling - I had it big time on graduation) eventually you'll get to where you need to be, but probably not by the route you expected.

So I hope PPs can be confident that there is no favouritism, no unfair advantage (well, apart from the socio-economic advantage that is beyond the control of Admissions Tutors), and that most universities want to "level up" - we want to find the best & brightest, and most élite universities will do a lot of things to make sure we look for potential students in previously overlooked places. In my department, throughout the summer, our seminar rooms & other spaces are full of summer school pupils, often from the poorest postcodes in my region, trying to give them a feel for a supposedly 'posh' university ie a Russell Group/research-led high achieving place. Taking the mystery out of studying at university and trying to provide opportunities for all.

I really wish parents wouldn't overthink the admissions process as if universities are out to cheat your DC. We are not - quite the reverse.

Sometimes, in this scenario, the student with the offer who got BBB will be left waiting without their offer confirmed because the uni will want to see if they can get anyone "better" via clearing first.

What we tend to do in my Department (it's not a blanket university policy) is give close consideration FIRST to those applicants who firmed us, but didn't quite meet their offer.

Because we're looking for fit, and because we interview, and because we want committed students who made a positive decision to choose our programme, we will try to confirm those applicants. It's not a given, but we tend to think that an applicant who has shown very positively that they want to study in our programme, will be more successful, and contribute more back to department life and his/her peers, than someone desperate in Clearing grabbing at the first thing.

For this reason, we often do a telephone interview for Clearing applicants. Fit & choice are still really important, even though we're under pressure from senior management, to meet our targets.

@SideWonder Very few unis interview. We mostly know courses and the few unis that do. Most admissions will have no idea about how a student feels because the vast majority never see a potential student to judge commitment. Some might not get their top choices at all so decide option 3 is ok. That’s hardly their fault in the face of competition. Many people don’t understand the admissions process and at many unis it’s not transparent.

@SideWonder @Postapocalypticcowgirl
Sometimes, in this scenario, the student with the offer who got BBB will be left waiting without their offer confirmed because the uni will want to see if they can get anyone "better" via clearing first.

Using this scenario what does the student see? Will UCAS display that offer as ‘conditional’ still and then later in the day change to ‘rejected’ when the uni find a better student in clearing with AAB?

If so, should the student with BBB call unis looking for a clearing place whilst waiting for that ‘conditional’ to change one way or another? I’m guessing they probably need to.

Most unis do telephone interviews as part of the clearing process, though. Which I believe this is what @SideWonder is describing.

I believe they'd still see the place as conditional, yeah.

In this scenario, as a teacher, it would be one of the situations I'd tell the student to call the uni. It might be a mistake, or at the very least the uni can let them know where they stand, and when they might hear back about a decision.

If it's their firm, then they'll automatically get a place at their insurance if the firm declines them, so they don't need to ring around other universities. If it's their insurance, then looking for another place in clearing might be a good idea however they won't have a clearing number so some unis won't seriously consider them in clearing.

It's actually a bit of a nightmare scenario for the student, and pretty unfair of unis when they do it, in my opinion. A few years back (maybe 2018?) I think it was Durham who left people hanging in this limbo for days, which was really, really unfair.

I think that's a much better policy, and much fairer to students.

Unfortunately, some unis would rather leave students who've shown that commitment to the uni and course hanging (occasionally for days), just in case they can replace them with someone "better"- as you say, the clearing applicant may not be a better fit for the course.

@Postapocalypticcowgirl No. Read attached. They like to give preference to near misses because they’ve interviewed them and already know they are a good fit. They positively do not want the random DCs who are desperate via clearing. This is clearly stated. Don’t blame them at all but very very few unis interview.

This must have been a very long time ago because Exeter’s MFL dept has a v wide range of languages and cultural modules.

I think there is a lot of uncertainty this year, and universities are hedging their bets, knowing that this is going to be a 'levelling down' year after the grade inflation of the covid years. In that sense there may be quite a few surprises/ misplaced students who were predicted A*AA or AAA but slip a couple (or more) grades.
Universities like Exeter are often seen as insurance/ back-up to the Oxbridge/ Durham/ Warwick applicants so they may just be widening the net as much as possible to catch as many of them.

In reality, as that thread in the StudentRoom says, the clearing places are filled with the students with highest grades first, in descending order, so probably AAB for a AAA course etc.

All the talk of 'not coping' and if a student only gets ABB etc for a previously advertised AAA level course is all a bit silly. In reality a wide range of abilities is reflected across a course and students will perform at their own level. Final degrees also range from Thirds to Firsts!

A family member with 11 As at GCSE, predicted AA*AA misjudged things in his A levels and got AABB (!). Went to a uni like (but not) Exeter and did brilliantly, coming out with a First later.
Unis like Exeter do very well mopping up bright students who might have missed their grades, but have a strong track record otherwise.

I get the impression that English isn't very popular because of how generic it is.

People who are good with languages tend to want to learn more than one, so choose MFL. If they love the beauty of the English language, they choose literature. Linguistics, creative writing and journalism are other more popular, specialised subjects.

Of course I'm aware that there can be joint honours but just focusing on solely English which is the subject of the OP.

Degrees like History, Politics, while also 'generic' give you specialised knowledge that can lean to some niche careers (while still competitive) such as working for the government, geopolitical risk advisor, etc.

There's nothing an English graduate does that sets them apart. They do a bit of everything, but people can pick and choose. A bit like 'business' degrees, you never know what they have and haven't done.... so difficult to assess....

@blackpear 13 years ago. Loads of unis have shrunk MFL depts. Many are still struggling due to too few Dc taking MFL. it’s not just languages offered. It’s number of options within the MFLs.

Pah! My A-Stars reformatted my post into goobledigook!

students who were predicted A star A star A star or AAA but slip

and
A family member with 11 As at GCSE, predicted A star A star AA misjudged things in his A levels and got AABB

@TizerorFizz you really misinterpret what I've posted. Please, do read more carefully & stop making such blanket assertions from so little knowledge!

This is what I wrote:

What we tend to do in my Department (it's not a blanket university policy) is give close consideration FIRST to those applicants who firmed us, but didn't quite meet their offer.

Note words such as "tend" and "close consideration" - I did not say we definitely accept an applicant who firmed us but didn't meet the grades.

I said "try" and "it's not a given."

FFS, please, read more carefully and stop commenting beyond your competence.

My overall point is that if it's at all possible, in my department (not all universities!), we will look carefully at those applicants who committed to us way back in May.

And actually, it's pretty standard for most universities (I've been Admission tutor or involved in my department's admissions at 4 UK universities, and universities in other countries where I've worked). Students who firm an offer demonstrate that that's the university and the course they prefer as their first choice.

So of course, it makes sense for universities & departments within them to try to see if those applicants are able to be confirmed in the place THEY have demonstrated they want to be at, if they haven't met the offer.

Obviously, there's no hard & fast rule. Some departments/universities may well hold out for applicants through Clearing with higher qualifications. For example, one factor is the judgement of experienced and knowledgeable Admissions Tutors (academics), and professional services staff working in central Admissions departments about the number of well-qualified applicants in Clearing,. This can change year to year, discipline to discipline.

Currently Exeter MFL offers degrees in

• Chinese
• French
• German
• Italian
• Portuguese
• Russian
• Spanish

A quick google gts you here:
https://modernlanguages.exeter.ac.uk/studying/undergraduate/

As I said, breadth of subject isn’t the same as number of subjects offered. Whatever cheerleading there is for Exeter, it’s perfectly ok for MFL but others are better.

So after all the long winded chatter @SideWonder you do prefer firmed applicants! I think unis should make this clear. They don’t.