Trying to understand clearing - grades seem so low for Exeter

[Revengeofthepangolins]

DS2 is year 12 so am browsing clearing to try to get some context for next year and to help him chose his UCAS 5.

Exeter asks for AAA for both English and Liberal Arts, but seems to have them in clearing now for ABC and BBC respectively (even lower for internationals). That seems a really surprisingly lower tarrif. Is that normal? And does it suggest that if their offer holders achieve these grades, Exeter will still accept them?

The question is, to both @Revengeofthepangolins and @GeorgeSchmeliott - why are you bothered about this?

If your DC are satisfied that Exeter (or wherever) is the best fit for them, then why are you worried about the results of other applicants? The standard will still be high, because the department is excellent. Exeter's humanities departments regularly top all the league tables -Rates of student satisfaction are high. Drama is spectacularly successful at this, as is Theology (they have quite a famous telly don IIRC), and Archaeology.

Exeter is known as a humanities university, and it's a well deserved reputation (I say this through gritted teeth, as the senior managers at my place are always putting us in competition with Exeter).

I seem to recall that in the worldwide rankings - the QS tables - Exeter ranks in the top 200 universities in the world (and there are 10s of 1000s of universities) and English usually ranks in the top 100 departments in the world.

As a PP has said, Clearing is very different now - universities are on the look out for candidates who've done better than their predictions, or who've changed their minds over the 6 months between firming offers and receiving results. (Oh, for a post-qualifications admissions process!) The A Level results required are always a "ball park" figure.

Actually, I'm so curious about this that I've had a look at the BA English at Exeter - they want ABC with an A in English, and excluding General Studies. This is still a pretty high standard!

If you can articulate WHY you are bothered about this apparently "lower" offer level at Clearing, maybe those of us in the field can respond more specifically.

A levels are really only important in so far as the higher grades you get, the more options are open to you for the next step.

Exactly. Couldn't have put it better @thing47

What I do think is that more parents are inclined to want DC doing a degree that directly leads to work. Or more directly than English.

That might be what parents want @TizerorFizz (and from everything you post I think you're a parent rather than an academic with knowledge of the broader picture?) but it's an inaccurate and outdated view of the usefulness of an English degree - or indeed any other Arts & Humanities degree. Our humanities graduates are highly employable, and in a wide range of jobs. Humanities grads are just as employed (there are stats to show this) as those with a BSc.

@GeorgeSchmeliott Maybe because, as PP says, it’s a big department and Exeter has form for doing this. However if DC is happy with course and the uni, it’s a perfectly good choice. When DD looked there for MFL years ago they were cutting courses and numbers. They might need to do this for English.

Yes they are lower and often they will drop them for in time applications too if not popular, they keep the high demands in the prospectus to appear elite

But why do Exeter seem to have so many places available for English compared to, for example Warwick or elsewhere? it seems odd.

As I said upthread, Exeter is probably the largest school of English in the UK. So it's not odd that they will have more vacancies; but those vacancies will be in proportion to a much higher number of places available.

It's a rule of thumb (at least at my RG big-civic university) that at undergraduate level, if English, History & Law can fill their places, we'll just about stay afloat financially. Those are the subjects with large cohorts.

And at a time when the domestic/Home student tuition fee doesn't cover costs - so most UK students are subsidised by high fee-paying international students - we need to have these large cohorts in Arts Faculties, to enable us to offer the wide range & variety of subjects and the appropriately research-led teaching which distinguishes a Russell Group university from, say a post-92.

This.

im programme lead for a course which requires 128 ucas points. We have never gone into clearing yet but according to Admissions if we do the course requirements drop to 98 ucas points. Hell will freeze over before someone with 98 ucas points gets on the course. If we ever did go into clearing we would be inundated and I’d easily be able to pick people who still had 128 ucas points. So anyone who currently holds a conditional offer and doesn’t get 128 points won’t be coming.

@SideWonder Im really not sure being a mere parent disqualifies me from having a valid view! This is a site for parents.

It’s definitely true fewer Dc want English. That’s the wider picture. Just because an academic thinks Dc should do their subject, and advocate for it, it does not mean those paying the bills agree. The IFS clearly shows English grads near the bottom of humanities grad earnings. I’m sorry if you don’t like it, but that’s the fact. Arts are even lower. Too many parents see it as self-indulgent and they are paying. The world has changed and I’m not outdated as stats show. As I said earlier, decent work experience and utilizing transferable skills can help a lot and I do believe many grads can benefit hugely from an English degree but need those extra attributes.

My DD1 did MFL. My lovely local Sri Lankan garage owner could not believe it. Why wasn’t she doing something where she would get a job? Why was I letting her do this? He suggested dentistry or law. I’m well aware Dc can do all sorts of things after MFL or English degrees, and DD has, but my local garage owner would not have wanted his Dc doing English. He’s not alone I think.

There’s also a need to reduce law places at our unis. As high as 2/3 of law grads do not get training contracts. Some of the publicity by lower level unis is almost laughable regarding pictures of grads in court dress. Students can easily be misled.

How do you know how many places they have? They may have one place per course.

I’m well aware Dc can do all sorts of things after MFL or English degrees, and DD has, but my local garage owner would not have wanted his Dc doing English. He’s not alone I think.

This is one of the (unintentional?) consequences of the marketisation of higher education. It used to be that academic study for the sake of it was a perfectly respectable approach – DH did an English degree initially and no one asked: 'But what are you going to do with it? What use will it be in getting a job?'. It was just accepted that the academic rigour of studying and analysing books in depth for 3 years was a worthwhile pursuit in and of itself.

FWIW I agree with a lot of what you say @TizerorFizz, and when you are paying a lot of money for something, it's understandable. I just wish it wasn't the case, and I'm not convinced society as a whole, or us as individuals, have benefited from this fundamental change in the function of a degree. But quite possibly I am just an old fart.

@thing47 I wish it wasn’t too but we have so many going to university with big money involved, it’s inevitable. We also have to be so careful about selling dreams.

When I was young, (and I’m really ancient) a poly or college of HE didn’t offer English degrees. It was offered at the universities. Plus there were more than enough jobs to go round for grads. Now look at the situation. Thousands and thousands of grads with similar degrees wanting the same jobs. So many are disappointed. The landscape has fundamentally changed. It might also be that there needs to be a change in what’s offered. If puffer coats are no longer in fashion, shops stock fewer of them. If you are a business, change is inevitable. Unis are businesses.

Meant to add: the function of a degree has changed too. Increasing participation clearly changed the academic landscape.

What do you mean by ‘a different area’ regarding clearing @PhotoDad?

Also where are grades required for clearing being posted other than Exeter please?

Competitive art & design courses, which require portfolio review. It's a very different world from "academic" subjects! A few prestigious places (in that particular area, not the MN usual suspects) have courses in Clearing right now. Didn't want to derail too much.

Also where are grades required for clearing being posted other than Exeter please

Queens, Belfast has their clearing grades up.

Answering a few questions back, I was interested because I wondered whether this would make Exeter a useful insurance place (or safer firm) assuming that a willingness to take ABC in clearing could make them more lenient for an original offer holder who had slipped.

@GeorgeSchmeliott if you truffle upthread there is a link to a TSR page in which someone who purports to be an Exeter admissions person explains that they have added extra places, although this seems a bit odd. Then lots of offer holders complain a lot and are told that same grades will apply to them. No idea if this is true. But it implies that this clearing bonanza isn’t a regular thing.

Soem courses have disappeared from the list since I first looked, presumably taken up by people not taking A levels, which throws a bit of doubt on the equal treatment comment

I can see where it says how many courses have spaces available (e.g. there are 22 courses with vacancies within 'English and Creative Writing'), but not how many individual places?

This easily could be "We have 3 places available within the entire English department, we don't quite care which courses, so let's flag up all 22 combinations and see which ones fill first." Uni admissions is definitely a Dark Art.

@Revengeofthepangolins I recall having a conversation on another thread where an IB student was being advised by some to write to Bristol as they had missed the score required. Academics mostly said it wouldn’t make any difference and that all candidates would be considered for unfilled places after A level results. This is clearly a fair position but posters insisted their IB DC had scored places before A level results came out. When courses are in clearing before A level results surely IB snd Scottish students can get in first if they need to? It doesn’t seem fair.

I also recall that thread @TizerorFizz but were there extenuating circumstances? I can’t quite remember the detail.
Im not sure if U.K. based IB students and Scottish students do get first dibs on places really given most unis oversubscribe and the majority of clearing places won’t become available until A level results are provided. Are there that many Home IB students and/or Scots applying to English/welsh/NI universities compared to home A level students. I’m just wondering if the numbers involved are very significant?