York, Durham, Exeter

[GodessOfThunder]

These universities seem feature in a disproportionate amount of discussion on Mumsnet as institutions commenters see as desirable for their DC to attend. Obviously they are well regarded universities, but why do they attract more discussion here than other Russell group universities, especially those in northern and midlands post-industrial cities such as Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Liverpool, Nottingham and Birmingham?

A few possible reasons were suggested by DH:

• They enjoy an undue level of perceived prestige due to being in smaller old cities/towns like Oxbridge
• The Mumsnet user base is skewed towards the SE and biased against post-industrial cities. Mumsnetters are less likely to be familiar with them and hold “grim up north” perceptions.
• There is a “showing off” factor in starting threads and commenting that DC has applied for, or attends, these institutions - the same goes for the “Oxbridge support” threads, the like of which you never see for red bricks.

Does anyone agree, or are there other explanatory factors?

Elite level is the top level of any sport. Elite runners , elite swimmers etc and they have elite programmes and development programmes, often (in some but not all sports) involving things like uni scholarships.

Athletes at elite level aren’t at Durham university playing a bit of rugger on the weekend and getting ratarsed afterwards. They are in pro teams.

There is cross-over in some sports though. The Durham men's hockey first team were in the premier league until a season or two ago and Nottingham Uni still is. (And there's plenty of first team hockey players getting rat-arsed after matches).

Women's uni hockey teams in the prem include Birmingham, Loughborough, Exeter and Nottingham.

High numbers of 1st XV rugby players at Durham, Exeter, Loughborough, and other BUCS super league teams are also signed to premiership rugby academies.

Don't get much more elite than that.

Cardiff doesn’t have any university pool and Exeter only has some outdoor pool I believe.

No Exeter have a proper indoor pool as well as the little outdoor one by the residences.
Don’t know about Cardiff…

Swimming is an elite sport but I suspect many of us tend to see elite uni sport as team sports with regular matches. Whereas the BUCS swimming league is a one-off weekend as far as I can tell.

May also depend on what sports your school offers. Our main sports are rugby, hockey and cricket and football isn't played. So I'd probably see those as among the main uni sports, elite or otherwise.

Back in the day rugby tended to be more popular at private schools and football at state schools. Is this still the case?

Yes, although most state schools do play rugby (and cricket, badly) and most private schools football . Football is generally regarded as 'lesser' at private schools but some are very good (Brentwood). State school children tend to gravitate to local rugby clubs - these tend to be found in 'rugby towns' (like the one I teach in). Cricket is very dominated by private schools.

A lot of the state school participation is down to specialism and interest of PE staff.

Girls' sport is different again!

Lacrosse is a sport definitely confined to a handful of public schools.

All sports can be elite? It describes a development level?

Try and tell Loughborough that swimming isn't an elite sport. Adam Peaty, for example, trained at Loughborough. Elite athletes and winter sports are found at Bath where many of our medallists went.

I live near the M62 Rugby League "corridor" so it is a popular sport in most schools round here. Traditionally rugby league was seen as an overwhelmingly working-class sport because the players couldn't afford to take time off work to play, whereas rugby union was widely regarded as an "establishment" sport, played mostly by members of the upper and middle classes.

I don't think that this is the case any more.

Rugby is still very much divided along class lines @RampantIvy

*All sports can be elite? It describes a development level?

Try and tell Loughborough that swimming isn't an elite sport. Adam Peaty, for example, trained at Loughborough. Elite athletes and winter sports are found at Bath where many of our medallists went.*

That's exactly my point. I was trying to explain (possibly not very well) why there was a question mark over the cross-over between elite sports and uni participation in them.

Clearly most, if not all, sports have an elite level. Whether there's core provision at universities for all sports at elite level is a different question. There is elite level hockey at universities and access to elite level rugby through partnerships with premiership clubs. I can't speak for the other sports.

I've used the word elite so many times, it's starting to look strange. My original point was only that picking a university because it offers a good performance sports programme isn't unreasonable. As are other reasons such as liking the campus or city.

Just to clarify, the term 'elite' is common parlance in the world of sport. As you rightly state in your first paragraph above, and as @Piggywaspushed has since explained, it refers simply to a level of performance. So it applies to individual sportsmen and women rather than to a sport. In a sporting context the term 'elite' carries no connotations of class or privilege, it is purely about the level being played, so someone can be an elite snooker player just as they can be an elite cricketer.

As for your second paragraph, I don't know whether you are being wilfully obtuse or simply don't know anything about university sport, but I'll assume the latter. What you say is entirely incorrect, there is plenty of elite sport going on at universities around the UK. These men and women aren't 'playing a bit of rugger on the weekend', they are training every day – they will have coaching, a gym programme, an S&C programme, possibly a diet and nutrition programme, access to a sports psychologist and they will play competitive matches at least once a week, more if it's a less physical sport.

Not sure many footballers are playing just once a week at uni? Some sports are geared to uni. Whether the participants go on to represent GB is another matter. It’s more self indulgent than necessary. Others go abroad for elite training. The vast majority of students don’t do sport to this level. Those that do should get funding separately and not from the uni.

Lacrosse is a sport definitely confined to a handful of public schools.
Totally agree. The interesting consequence at DS's university is that they'll take absolute beginners to make up the numbers. So is lacrosse the level playing field of university sports or is this not representative?

Lacrosse is a sport definitely confined to a handful of public schools.

Oddly the Midwest city in the USA that I live in has lots of Lacrosse at its state high schools. I don't know why.

Doesn't it come originally from the indigenous American people, so that would make sense in that context.

I didn't know that, yes I guess that might explain it.

I played lacrosse at school (and loathed it, most of the time - I still have issues with the word 'cradle'). Discovering a) that it was the French women's national game and b) that the indigenous peoples of America used to play it to the death explained a lot, to my mind.

I have a friend who played lacrosse for the American national team, although I don't think he took it up until university.

I played in the Durham Uni tennis team and I can confirm that it was definitely not elite level standard. Fun but more focused on getting back in time for the college formals.

It's interesting to see how uni sport has changed since we were there. There's professional coaches rather than being about whether you're friends with the captain from Hatfield or wherever. And much more organised in terms of S&C etc. The unis have amazing sports centres too which must have cost millions.

Isn't lacrosse also seen as primarily a male sport in the US too? Whereas football is much more of a women's sport over there. Weird nation 😁

@sep135 you might like to know that Durham are the number one rated university lacrosse team (the men's team is also). So that would look much on your CV in hindsight than it might have done at the time…!

'much better' that should have said!

Look at so many GB swimmers. They’re at UK universities. Bath is often mentioned. A neighbour’s grandson is an “elite” swimmer, but not to international level, he chose Cardiff for its swimming.

Lots of greater Manchester state schools also play.

It’s not. State schools in greater Manchester play.