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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

York, Durham, Exeter

910 replies

GodessOfThunder · 25/06/2023 21:07

These universities seem feature in a disproportionate amount of discussion on Mumsnet as institutions commenters see as desirable for their DC to attend. Obviously they are well regarded universities, but why do they attract more discussion here than other Russell group universities, especially those in northern and midlands post-industrial cities such as Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Liverpool, Nottingham and Birmingham?

A few possible reasons were suggested by DH:

  • They enjoy an undue level of perceived prestige due to being in smaller old cities/towns like Oxbridge
  • The Mumsnet user base is skewed towards the SE and biased against post-industrial cities. Mumsnetters are less likely to be familiar with them and hold “grim up north” perceptions.
  • There is a “showing off” factor in starting threads and commenting that DC has applied for, or attends, these institutions - the same goes for the “Oxbridge support” threads, the like of which you never see for red bricks.

Does anyone agree, or are there other explanatory factors?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Spirallingdownwards · 25/06/2023 23:19

Isn't it because York and Exeter are everyone's favourite insurance choice as they often take with dropped grades and are still in the acceptable to boast about set 😉?

Spirallingdownwards · 25/06/2023 23:21

lastdayatschool · 25/06/2023 22:46

In 2022, York had no openings in Clearing for UK applicants

Yes because they will take those who firm and insure with dropped grades hence it doesn't go into clearing. In 2020 however they were picking up loads of students who missed their CAGS after algorithm dripped their grades before it was reversed.

Parker231 · 25/06/2023 23:39

Spirallingdownwards · 25/06/2023 23:21

Yes because they will take those who firm and insure with dropped grades hence it doesn't go into clearing. In 2020 however they were picking up loads of students who missed their CAGS after algorithm dripped their grades before it was reversed.

DD needed three A’s for York - same as St Andrews. She chose York.

QueenofLouisiana · 25/06/2023 23:40

If you really want to cause a stir, try mentioning any non-English university (except Edinburgh or St Andrews). Even if it is ranked 4th for its particular area of expertise, considerably above Exeter, Durham and York. People will immediately explain why the other universities are actually better and decide to disregard “those” rankings.

Marchintospring · 25/06/2023 23:46

Yep. Exeter is an extension of private 6th form as far as I can make out. It was York in the 90’s.
The trendy MN unis are very white. The Warwick’s and Imperial's, whilst top notch aren’t the cool ones. It us obvious from the stats that private education and whiteness imparts some kudos unfortunately.
Outside of the Exeter/ Bristol/Bath bubble I think Liverpool is doing well. Lots of well off southern kids choosing it over Newcastle and Manchester.

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 26/06/2023 00:54

I think it is representative of the most vocal contingent on Mumsnet, white middle class and middle class aspirational. Those universities are not not particularly diverse from a racial or socioeconomic perspective. Many 'academic' students are in high achiever groups in their sixth forms and outside of Oxbridge the Russell Group are encouraged as worthy for consideration (and bragging rights for the school/college). Choice of course matters too science vs humanities. There are IMO more interesting places to consider than Durham and Exeter on the Science side.

jooon · 26/06/2023 05:09

"Thanks - that seems plausible. It would be interesting to see where the York/Durham/Exeter preferring parents live. Perhaps less likely to live in cities themselves."

I think it's possibly quite the opposite actually. Many Londoners want a different 'experience.' So small, 'character' cities appeal. They want to get out of London - so what is the point of going to Manchester or Birmingham, when you could go to UCL, Imperial, Kings, LSE?

It's a different experience in a small city / campus uni because if there's only a couple of nightclubs, that's where everyone will be, rather than scattered across the endless options in a large city. It's just easier to 'find people,' I guess. You wander around Cambridge or Durham or York - you bump into people. London students are probably not so excited by the prospect of cities like Manchester or Glasgow because they have all that anyway and then some.

BestServedChilled · 26/06/2023 06:17

@jooon this certainly influenced my choices of university. Note it was my choice not my parents - and I am white and middle-class aspirational. University does rather tend to be middle-class aspirational for obvious reasons.

No one in my family had been to university before my brother and I did, so no one advised us. I didn’t want a huge anonymous city. I would have gone with a focused campus or small city uni. I had friends at London who lived soooooo far from their college buildings. I wouldn’t have wanted that - plenty of time to be a commuter later.

I only intend to advise my daughter if she asks me to help her. And I’ll be her free taxi/train companion to visit all the shortlisted locations.

PhotoDad · 26/06/2023 06:29

I agree that a certain handful of universities get all of the MN love! I think that the "small city" point is a good one. My DS will be looking at (mostly) RG unis in a year or so.

In the meantime, I'd like to point out that some creative/technical subjects mainly exist in a completely different world of art schools (etc), now often attached to post-92 places. There are a few support threads about those!

Piggywaspushed · 26/06/2023 07:24

I am surprised that York made it into tis discussion. If you looked at boys data , you would find that it has a very different intake from Exeter, Durham, St Andrews, Edinburgh (which are definitely not overlooked on MN!). Not very ethnically diverse sure, but far more state school students than many RG universities. It ahs always taken that seriously.

When I have mentioned York in the past, I feel it gets a bit of sneering about 'campus'. Campus unis don't seem to be regarded as very cool by a certain group of (often London dwelling) MNers.

You might have some valid points about some metropolitan unis being underdiscussed, OP, but you are wrong about York. It's spoken of in the same breath as its fellow plate glass, Lancaster.

I've been on HE for many years. The quintessential desirable MN unis are:

Oxbridge
RG London unis except QMUL
St Andrews
Edinburgh
Durham
Bristol

with a recent trend towards Bath, Lancaster, York and a few others but not nearly with the same tone.

Spirallingdownwards · 26/06/2023 07:24

Parker231 · 25/06/2023 23:39

DD needed three A’s for York - same as St Andrews. She chose York.

Yes. I am sure there are a lot who choose it over others but the fact remains the same they accept a lot of people who firm and insure with them on grades lower than their offer.

1dayatatime · 26/06/2023 07:31

UCL, LSE and Imperial consistently top the rankings. However parents / students that are based in London / SE tend to want the experience of going "away" to University and not somewhere close to home.

Equally parents/ students that are not based in London / SE are put off by the higher cost of living (in particular accommodation) as a student in London.

GodessOfThunder · 26/06/2023 07:53

Piggywaspushed · 26/06/2023 07:24

I am surprised that York made it into tis discussion. If you looked at boys data , you would find that it has a very different intake from Exeter, Durham, St Andrews, Edinburgh (which are definitely not overlooked on MN!). Not very ethnically diverse sure, but far more state school students than many RG universities. It ahs always taken that seriously.

When I have mentioned York in the past, I feel it gets a bit of sneering about 'campus'. Campus unis don't seem to be regarded as very cool by a certain group of (often London dwelling) MNers.

You might have some valid points about some metropolitan unis being underdiscussed, OP, but you are wrong about York. It's spoken of in the same breath as its fellow plate glass, Lancaster.

I've been on HE for many years. The quintessential desirable MN unis are:

Oxbridge
RG London unis except QMUL
St Andrews
Edinburgh
Durham
Bristol

with a recent trend towards Bath, Lancaster, York and a few others but not nearly with the same tone.

Thank you!

OP posts:
Maglin · 26/06/2023 07:57

Perhaps because mumsnet isn't always real life? The northern city unis you mention don't seem to be struggling for students. Leeds certainly is popular among the druggy contingent of dds private school!

honeyandfizz · 26/06/2023 08:00

CastleTower · 25/06/2023 21:53

Parents love visiting cathedrals.

Ha! I persuaded DD to go to Bath just because I love visiting her there 😂

Piggywaspushed · 26/06/2023 08:19

Yup, Leeds has a larger private school contingent than York ( Birmingham and Nottingham both do too).

CastleTower · 26/06/2023 08:23

@honeyandfizz I rest my case!

We may also need to consider (tenuous) links to Harry Potter and the quality of the tea rooms, as these also seem to be common threads in the OP's choices.

bluebolt · 26/06/2023 08:33

University on mumsnet is a whole bag of sneering from those who who only consider the top 4, top 10 to those who extend to the top 20. This board mainly retains the higher flyers as many posters don’t really need the digs about grades and university. It is only a small snapshot over represented by a minority. DS1 went to York through clearing and loved it there and I’d recommend York.

Xenia · 26/06/2023 08:57

My children went to Bristol, Nottingham and Reading and we all know they rank in that order. There things are not made up or dark arts. Just look at who is hired and where on linkedin in the bette rjobs for new graduates or look at which universities require higher grades and you get an instant ranking which is a free market ranking, nothing to do with colour of your skin or social class.

Or look at the Destinations of Leavers charts for the more academic state schools like this one https://henrietta-barnett.ams3.digitaloceanspaces.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/24141553/Final-Destinations-2020.pdf

https://henrietta-barnett.ams3.digitaloceanspaces.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/24141553/Final-Destinations-2020.pdf

GodessOfThunder · 26/06/2023 09:30

Xenia · 26/06/2023 08:57

My children went to Bristol, Nottingham and Reading and we all know they rank in that order. There things are not made up or dark arts. Just look at who is hired and where on linkedin in the bette rjobs for new graduates or look at which universities require higher grades and you get an instant ranking which is a free market ranking, nothing to do with colour of your skin or social class.

Or look at the Destinations of Leavers charts for the more academic state schools like this one https://henrietta-barnett.ams3.digitaloceanspaces.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/24141553/Final-Destinations-2020.pdf

Thanks for sharing that. Interesting. Lots of pupils staying in London (staying at home or want say access to mum’s cooking and washing services ;) ?). Hardly any going to post-industrial midlands and northern red bricks. Only one going to a post-92 university (assuming the list is the full year).

OP posts:
WombatChocolate · 26/06/2023 09:39

Spirallingdownwards · 25/06/2023 23:19

Isn't it because York and Exeter are everyone's favourite insurance choice as they often take with dropped grades and are still in the acceptable to boast about set 😉?

I think there is definitely something in this.

The key is that teens need to out 5 choices on their UCAS Form. They are thinking in terms of their favourite aspirational choice, another which they would firm if they don’t get their top choice offer, and another they would insure. So most really want 3. They then need to fill the other 2 places.

Some students are stellar applicants. They have all Astar predictions and lots of other sought after attributes. They are often looking at the real top places - Oxbridge and perhaps the places like COWI (Cambridge, Oxford, Warwick and Imperial for Maths courses and Economics. Apart from Oxbridge, the others aren’t in the title of the thread but they are extremely extremely hard to get into for the popular courses. So these might be the top choices for those candidates, but they put the places listed in the thread title as places they will use as their top choice if their genuine top choice and very hard to get offers from places don’t give them an offer (and for popular courses, lots with 3 A star grades often only get 1 or 2 of their 5 choices if they put COWI places and perhaps Edinburgh for things like Econ) and then they need another that will be their insurance too. Yes, York, Exeter make offers to pretty much everyone who has the right grades and also will take people if they drop a grade in most courses in a normal year.

There are far more strong but not top notch applicants who apply with grades in the region of 3 As or similar. They aren’t applying to the COWI places for Econ/Maths and are less likely to be looking at London unis etc. These days, 3 As isn’t unusual from a decent private or state grammar school or really good Comp. Students who are solid but not stellar have often got these predictions and want somewhere that feels prestigious. Those from schools or families where these things matter, possibly feel that Exeter and increasingly York are the ‘right’ kind of places. Academic schools often send large numbers to these places and so they feel prestigious and normal for these families and schools. The fact that the unis do a good job of selling themselves as more selective than they really are, helps them maintain a sense that they are more academic in intake than perhaps places like Nottingham, Birmingham etc who have maybe a one grade lower published entry requirement, but in reality are taking students with the same grades…because York and Extetr will accept those they made offers to who miss by a grade.

So these good but not stellar places have those applying for whom it will be a push, those who are very likely to get the required grades, and those who expect to achieve more and go elsewhere, but also need an insurance offer or somewhere to firm if their top choice doesn’t offer. So these places like Exeter and York have a VAST number of applicants because they are attracting from all 3 categories of applicants. I think that’s why they come up so much.

Durham….similar, but possibly a bit more difficult to get into and less likely to take people with lower grades….so yes, it’s second for Oxbridge applicants generally and it might be second for people wanting the COWI courses or STEM which might be better elsewhere, but for some courses it is still very much the one-down from Oxbeidge.

I think Exeter especially remains popular as an extension of selective schooling which feels safe. The small city, not being northern or urban feeling and campus based might well appeal to those who want a student bubble and who are solid workers but not massively academically committed. This might be unfair, but it feels a bit like that to me.

It’s interesting as a dynamic. I think ultimately it’s to do with needing to out 5 places in the form and these very good but not absolutely top places ticking the boxes of top 5 for both the very top applicants and the huge group of strong but not top and not quite so good but aspirational students that are out there. Clever marketing also makes them feel ‘elite’ and that counts for a lot with people.

WombatChocolate · 26/06/2023 09:49

GodessOfThunder · 26/06/2023 09:30

Thanks for sharing that. Interesting. Lots of pupils staying in London (staying at home or want say access to mum’s cooking and washing services ;) ?). Hardly any going to post-industrial midlands and northern red bricks. Only one going to a post-92 university (assuming the list is the full year).

That link is interesting.

There’s certainly a difference between destinations of those from state grammars and independent schools I think, especially in the super selective state grammars. Would it be correct to say parents place greater emphasis on STEM or degrees leading directly to a career such as medicine? Perhaps where these girls are genuinely very clever and looking at Astar and not just A grades, they really are seeking out the very top courses and not just a uni they feels the right type and one for all their school friends to go to together? Might be too simplistic and wrong.

Some places certainly feel too white and middle class for some applicants. State grammars like HBS and QE boys are ethnically diverse and to have got places in these super selectives, parents are often extremely driven. We can assume they take a similar approach to uni applications. London unis feel more comfortable to these students who live in London or it’s fringes, than to many Home Counties kids. The comfort and ease of a campus isn’t probably the key consideration.

Xenia · 26/06/2023 11:05

Good points on the thread. My link to the state school Henrietta Barnett destination of leaves we could contrast with som day fee payment selective schools

https://resources.finalsite.net/images/v1662554619/habsboysorguk/o12c1kssb8jsxg6q4gz7/UniversityDestinationsandsubjects2022_1.pdf Habs boys

Manchester grammar (fee paying day school) although this is 2020 https://www.mgs.org/178/universities

Westminster https://www.westminster.org.uk/academic-life/exam-results-he/

I have no skin in any game in this. If someone thinks XYZ knitting degree at an ex polytechnic is brilliant for their advanced knitting studies go there. If you want medicinte at Cambridge pick that. It is a relatively free market and if you make a mistake and place a university which is not as good as you think then more fool you. Each to their own. However do make informed choices based on all relevant factors.

https://resources.finalsite.net/images/v1662554619/habsboysorguk/o12c1kssb8jsxg6q4gz7/UniversityDestinationsandsubjects2022_1.pdf

Piggywaspushed · 26/06/2023 12:33

WombatChocolate · 26/06/2023 09:49

That link is interesting.

There’s certainly a difference between destinations of those from state grammars and independent schools I think, especially in the super selective state grammars. Would it be correct to say parents place greater emphasis on STEM or degrees leading directly to a career such as medicine? Perhaps where these girls are genuinely very clever and looking at Astar and not just A grades, they really are seeking out the very top courses and not just a uni they feels the right type and one for all their school friends to go to together? Might be too simplistic and wrong.

Some places certainly feel too white and middle class for some applicants. State grammars like HBS and QE boys are ethnically diverse and to have got places in these super selectives, parents are often extremely driven. We can assume they take a similar approach to uni applications. London unis feel more comfortable to these students who live in London or it’s fringes, than to many Home Counties kids. The comfort and ease of a campus isn’t probably the key consideration.

Complete anecdata but DS2, at Birmingham, has an ethnically diverse , privately educated friendship group (he is neither) who selected Birmingham because they felt they would fit in.

Xenia · 26/06/2023 12:37

I do hope the UK won't segregate by class or colour at university though...... One of my son's friends (who is not white - where we live most people are not white) went to Warwick in part for a good ethnic mix which I can understand. I suspect university was the first time my sons have ever been in an ethnic mix which represents the UK and is majority white so these are quite interesting issues - my son was the only white boy in his class at one stage which is no problem to me but does show how there is white flight, white and mostly not white areas etc etc which will always have been the case as when new people come to the UK they often go where others like they are are based like China Town etc

University is a lovely time to meet people who are rich and poor, white and black, private and state school educated so I hope we can maintain that mixture.