Page 33 | York, Durham, Exeter

GodessOfThunder · 2023-06-25T20:07:30+00:00

These universities seem feature in a disproportionate amount of discussion on Mumsnet as institutions commenters see as desirable for their DC to attend. Obviously they are well regarded universities, but why do they attract more discussion here than other Russell group universities, especially those in northern and midlands post-industrial cities such as Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Liverpool, Nottingham and Birmingham? A few possible reasons were suggested by DH: - They enjoy an undue level of perceived prestige due to being in smaller old cities/towns like Oxbridge - The Mumsnet user base is skewed towards the SE and biased against post-industrial cities. Mumsnetters are less likely to be familiar with them and hold “grim up north” perceptions. - There is a “showing off” factor in starting threads and commenting that DC has applied for, or attends, these institutions - the same goes for the “Oxbridge support” threads, the like of which you never see for red bricks. Does anyone agree, or are there other explanatory factors?

thing47 · 12/09/2023 10:33

boys3 · 12/09/2023 07:58

If one were cynical one might observe that it not really a (traditional) middle class sport.

Show quote history

I suspect the truth is more prosaic than that. If you're a good enough footballer to play professionally you're going to be attached to a club long before you get to 18, and by 21/22 you will be aiming to break into the first team squad – you can't really afford to take those 3/4 years 'out' to go to university. Plus of course, there's so much money in football that those who make it don't need to plan for any sort of future career – not financially, at any rate.

Rugby, cricket, hockey all have well-established routes into the professional game via university. That happens less now than it used to, but it's still an accepted path so going to university won't rule out a professional career in those sports.

If you want a middle-class example, I give you tennis. Most tennis players are on the professional circuit by their teens (for women) or early twenties (for men). Coco Gauff, who won the US Open at the weekend, hasn't turned 20 yet and has been on the pro circuit for 4 years. They may, of course, continue to study in their spare time, but going to university full time isn't really possible.

Piggywaspushed · 12/09/2023 10:34

Au contraire, GoT. in my fairly length HE boards experience, there's a fair amount of sneering aimed at campi (??) on MN, largely coming from the more affluent/more citied. They're seen as 'provincial', I feel.

Not aimed at you rampant . Hands over olive branch.

Piggywaspushed · 12/09/2023 10:36

My DH was a professional footballer as it goes but it's a really long story involving an extraordinarily pushy father as to how he ended up at university, studying (and failing) maths.

Lampzade · 12/09/2023 10:39

WombatChocolate · 26/06/2023 09:39

I think there is definitely something in this.

The key is that teens need to out 5 choices on their UCAS Form. They are thinking in terms of their favourite aspirational choice, another which they would firm if they don’t get their top choice offer, and another they would insure. So most really want 3. They then need to fill the other 2 places.

Some students are stellar applicants. They have all Astar predictions and lots of other sought after attributes. They are often looking at the real top places - Oxbridge and perhaps the places like COWI (Cambridge, Oxford, Warwick and Imperial for Maths courses and Economics. Apart from Oxbridge, the others aren’t in the title of the thread but they are extremely extremely hard to get into for the popular courses. So these might be the top choices for those candidates, but they put the places listed in the thread title as places they will use as their top choice if their genuine top choice and very hard to get offers from places don’t give them an offer (and for popular courses, lots with 3 A star grades often only get 1 or 2 of their 5 choices if they put COWI places and perhaps Edinburgh for things like Econ) and then they need another that will be their insurance too. Yes, York, Exeter make offers to pretty much everyone who has the right grades and also will take people if they drop a grade in most courses in a normal year.

There are far more strong but not top notch applicants who apply with grades in the region of 3 As or similar. They aren’t applying to the COWI places for Econ/Maths and are less likely to be looking at London unis etc. These days, 3 As isn’t unusual from a decent private or state grammar school or really good Comp. Students who are solid but not stellar have often got these predictions and want somewhere that feels prestigious. Those from schools or families where these things matter, possibly feel that Exeter and increasingly York are the ‘right’ kind of places. Academic schools often send large numbers to these places and so they feel prestigious and normal for these families and schools. The fact that the unis do a good job of selling themselves as more selective than they really are, helps them maintain a sense that they are more academic in intake than perhaps places like Nottingham, Birmingham etc who have maybe a one grade lower published entry requirement, but in reality are taking students with the same grades…because York and Extetr will accept those they made offers to who miss by a grade.

So these good but not stellar places have those applying for whom it will be a push, those who are very likely to get the required grades, and those who expect to achieve more and go elsewhere, but also need an insurance offer or somewhere to firm if their top choice doesn’t offer. So these places like Exeter and York have a VAST number of applicants because they are attracting from all 3 categories of applicants. I think that’s why they come up so much.

Durham….similar, but possibly a bit more difficult to get into and less likely to take people with lower grades….so yes, it’s second for Oxbridge applicants generally and it might be second for people wanting the COWI courses or STEM which might be better elsewhere, but for some courses it is still very much the one-down from Oxbeidge.

I think Exeter especially remains popular as an extension of selective schooling which feels safe. The small city, not being northern or urban feeling and campus based might well appeal to those who want a student bubble and who are solid workers but not massively academically committed. This might be unfair, but it feels a bit like that to me.

It’s interesting as a dynamic. I think ultimately it’s to do with needing to out 5 places in the form and these very good but not absolutely top places ticking the boxes of top 5 for both the very top applicants and the huge group of strong but not top and not quite so good but aspirational students that are out there. Clever marketing also makes them feel ‘elite’ and that counts for a lot with people.

Show quote history

All of this

Lampzade · 12/09/2023 10:41

York definitely take people who drop a grade or two which is why my dd had it as her insurance.

Lampzade · 12/09/2023 10:43

Birmingham University seems to be the choice for many of my dd’s peers/ friends who are all highly academic
DD didn’t apply for Birmingham though

Original poster

GodessOfThunder · 12/09/2023 10:43

Piggywaspushed · 12/09/2023 10:34

Au contraire, GoT. in my fairly length HE boards experience, there's a fair amount of sneering aimed at campi (??) on MN, largely coming from the more affluent/more citied. They're seen as 'provincial', I feel.

Not aimed at you rampant . Hands over olive branch.

I think there may be some truth in that. I would question the link with affluence though. Quite a few of the universities that overrepresent the privately educated are in smaller cities, towns, or on campuses. They also over-represent present and future conservatives .

I’m at a loss as to why someone would prefer to live on campus at, say, Keele, or Loughborough, rather than live in Manchester, but that’s just me.

OP posts:

RampantIvy · 12/09/2023 11:01

Maybe because, apart from London and maybe Bristol, the other large cities are (whispers) North of Watford

@Piggywaspushed I knew it wasn't aimed at me. Don't worry. I always enjoy your contributions on here.

Piggywaspushed · 12/09/2023 11:12

I think if you look at data (Piggy eyes Boys) you might find Keele has a far higher state school intake than Manchester.

Not sure what you mean by 'smaller cities'? Lincoln, Gloucester, Winchester are all small cities. High state school intake.

Piggywaspushed · 12/09/2023 11:17

Obviously 'future conservatives' are at Oxford, statistically. Where else?

Certainly not York, if you look at its alumni.

Piggywaspushed · 12/09/2023 11:24

I hope we'd all acknowledge that discussion like this, amongst people like us is why school attended, area lived in, and parents' educational background are metrics that are used. Being able to knowledgeably discuss where relatives and friends have gone, how to game or play systems, transport options , knowing acronyms such as COWI, having an awareness of Russell Group and other rankings/groupings, apparently knowing which universities drop grades, having teachers paid specifically to support university entry, being able to travel to many open days, even knowing what is meant by terms such as 'campus' etc etc are all markers of a privilege that we are lucky to have.

I include myself in this. My DCs had multiple advantages.

There is another world where bright students have limited recourse to this kind of 'soft' information.

Original poster

GodessOfThunder · 12/09/2023 11:28

Piggywaspushed · 12/09/2023 11:12

I think if you look at data (Piggy eyes Boys) you might find Keele has a far higher state school intake than Manchester.

Not sure what you mean by 'smaller cities'? Lincoln, Gloucester, Winchester are all small cities. High state school intake.

According to Times Uni Guide, of the top 10 unis in terms of % private school intake, 60% are in locations with a population of 150k or below.

OP posts:

Piggywaspushed · 12/09/2023 11:29

Oh, and re Manchester, if one has access to that level of networking I am taking about one might know that Manchester, for example, has had very significant accommodation issues and that Loughborough does not.

Lampzade · 12/09/2023 11:36

Piggywaspushed · 12/09/2023 11:24

I hope we'd all acknowledge that discussion like this, amongst people like us is why school attended, area lived in, and parents' educational background are metrics that are used. Being able to knowledgeably discuss where relatives and friends have gone, how to game or play systems, transport options , knowing acronyms such as COWI, having an awareness of Russell Group and other rankings/groupings, apparently knowing which universities drop grades, having teachers paid specifically to support university entry, being able to travel to many open days, even knowing what is meant by terms such as 'campus' etc etc are all markers of a privilege that we are lucky to have.

I include myself in this. My DCs had multiple advantages.

There is another world where bright students have limited recourse to this kind of 'soft' information.

This is why MN is great

I was able to use information from MN to help my own dcs throughout their primary, secondary and now higher education .

RampantIvy · 12/09/2023 12:19

I'm in full agreement with @Piggywaspushed and @Lampzade

Crikeyalmighty · 12/09/2023 12:56

@GodessOfThunder me too if I'm honest and I live in Bath- but the difference is it's still quite a studenty city- same with say Nottingham

Loughborough tends to attract a lot of high level sport though- so it's quite niche

Xenia · 12/09/2023 15:33

Although compared with the times when I cycled to Newcastle library in my teens to borrow a book "What people earn", most children at school at least have internet access and probably have a lot more access to information than my day even if they are not very well off. I accept some will not even know what to look for.

On sport I would think most students are looking for places where they can get drunk more than play sport! I was happy Conservative voter at Manchester and from Newcastle where there are many Tories.I am not sure there were many openly Tory voters at Bristol with my children who went there. May be voting like half the country does is something universities do not really allow students to voice in our cancel culture of woke left politics and their appalling grip on schools and universities.

RampantIvy · 12/09/2023 16:21

Gets the popcorn out.

Piggywaspushed · 12/09/2023 16:40

Xenia , you never fail to disappoint. I repeat - loads of students- perfectly validly choose uni for sport. The fact that it is an alien concept to a couple of posters does not undo the fact that it is true.

I prefer salted popcorn rampant. You?

thing47 · 12/09/2023 16:58

Surely you can get drunk anywhere? You can only get top-level sport if you are at a university which provides it (for your chosen sport)…

Obviously mixed salted/sweet is best @Piggywaspushed, that way you can never be disappointed that you didn't get the other one.

RampantIvy · 12/09/2023 17:00

Piggywaspushed · 12/09/2023 16:40

Xenia , you never fail to disappoint. I repeat - loads of students- perfectly validly choose uni for sport. The fact that it is an alien concept to a couple of posters does not undo the fact that it is true.

I prefer salted popcorn rampant. You?

While sport is an alien concept to DD and her friends, even I accept that it is a major consideration for many students when choosing where to study.

I would go so far as to suggest that most students don't search "what people earn" before choosing A levels and degree courses.

Sweet and salty for me BTW.

Delphigirl · 12/09/2023 17:20

My friends kid was very disappointed to get to Durham and find out they didn’t have a proper swimming pool. He was a regional swimmer but assumed all prestigious unis would have a 25m pool ant tte very least. Apparently not.

lastdayatschool · 12/09/2023 17:29

@Delphigirl - the university swim team trains at the Freeman's Quay swimming pool and also at Durham School.

Your friends son should be able to swim in either of those places

Original poster

GodessOfThunder · 12/09/2023 17:36

Xenia · 12/09/2023 15:33

Although compared with the times when I cycled to Newcastle library in my teens to borrow a book "What people earn", most children at school at least have internet access and probably have a lot more access to information than my day even if they are not very well off. I accept some will not even know what to look for.

On sport I would think most students are looking for places where they can get drunk more than play sport! I was happy Conservative voter at Manchester and from Newcastle where there are many Tories.I am not sure there were many openly Tory voters at Bristol with my children who went there. May be voting like half the country does is something universities do not really allow students to voice in our cancel culture of woke left politics and their appalling grip on schools and universities.

A Tory voter as a student? Lolz.

OP posts:

sep135 · 12/09/2023 17:38

A Tory voter as a student? Lolz.

Double lolz if that Tory voting student is studying politics. I slightly dread to think what my son writes in his essays.