York, Durham, Exeter

[GodessOfThunder]

These universities seem feature in a disproportionate amount of discussion on Mumsnet as institutions commenters see as desirable for their DC to attend. Obviously they are well regarded universities, but why do they attract more discussion here than other Russell group universities, especially those in northern and midlands post-industrial cities such as Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Liverpool, Nottingham and Birmingham?

A few possible reasons were suggested by DH:

• They enjoy an undue level of perceived prestige due to being in smaller old cities/towns like Oxbridge
• The Mumsnet user base is skewed towards the SE and biased against post-industrial cities. Mumsnetters are less likely to be familiar with them and hold “grim up north” perceptions.
• There is a “showing off” factor in starting threads and commenting that DC has applied for, or attends, these institutions - the same goes for the “Oxbridge support” threads, the like of which you never see for red bricks.

Does anyone agree, or are there other explanatory factors?

So just going to private school means you mustn't appear confident in case you upset someone from state school?

I think if you just accept there are lots of different types of people at uni then you'll be fine. No need to feel inferior. I'm sure there are lots of cocky little shits from state school as well.

There are. It’s also misleading to think private school equals class and money . It doesn’t. Money is everywhere. Lots in grammar schools. I don’t see why students cannot find their own tribe if they wish. Just don’t diss others or avoid a uni due to preconceived outdated very silly ideas!

And: I didn’t go to uni. I’m an outlier. I did go to a poly on day release. I’m not one of the standard parents who had an “in my day” experience. That in itself is usually enough to be looked down up by judgy posters!

On what are the reasons - the main one is that those universities ARE better.

I know lots on the thread do not agree but if you weigh up all the factors - being in a nice place, people you will meet, proximity to future jobs, high academic standards etc etc the whole raft of factors mean those are good choices for many.

It is a very interesting thread - many thanks to everyone on it. (One of my children took the horse (private school child ) to Bristol in year 3 I think it was and used to get up at 6.30am to drive quite a distance to muck it out - quite a task and an early start. That was more about manure than being posh in practice......)

Not all private school pupils are bright. Somer private schools specialise in those who aren't and those pupils certainly do not go to universities which require high grades. They may not even go to university at all like Prince Harry and his mother.
It would be a pity of state school pupils decided to keep themselves apart from the 20% (at sixth form level) who go to fee paying schools or refused to mix with those from state grammars as many of them are coached and from better off families.
Univesrity should be mixing - first time my sons were in a white environment other than at home in a sense was at university (we are white but most people are not where we live as most people aren't white in our London borough nor in their school). They also mixed with students from all kinds of families at Bristol.

I do think meeting others who are different broadens the mind. It can work both ways and those not so well off can learn from others eg how the other half live, what you need to do to be better off, which jobs pay better, where are your new richer friends going off to do for work. All different kinds of people benefit from the mixing.

@WombatChocolate this is a really good point and I think many people are just unaware of the social capital certain backgrounds bring.

as I have mentioned I live in Bucks and my children attended / attend a grammar school and were at their middling achievement catchment primary before. Neither dh nor myself went to Uni - for me I had an offer but various circumstances meant I didn’t go. My youngest dc has offers from 2 in this thread. The Durham offer was noticeable for the number of people who questioned whether this was somewhere she would want to go as it was suggested (on a good few occasions) that the student base would not be people from either our background or our beliefs (this was said by people both privately and state educated). We actually spoke at length to the department she applied to about the student mix at the offer holders day - we were told it is a problem and needs addressing).

Its also noticeable on Durham and similar threads that they are heavily populated by parents who went to Durham / Oxbridge / wherever which really does give them a feel of being closed clubs which people like us don’t belong in. I looked at the other students at the offer hokders day and really did panic feeling like Durham wasn’t for people like us. Of course I totally acknowledge my children’s privilege having attended a grammar school so it must be doubly so for those who haven’t.

I have deliberated for ages about posting this as I fear that those who disagree with my opinions will jump down my throat and tell me this isn’t the case - but it really is - and if I feel like this, and I’m fairly hardened then it must be doubly so for young people and yes totally to yr comments about holidays etc.

Tbf the other parents may have made you feel inferior but it's not you going to Durham!

I think you have fairly monumentally missed the point.

And actually they haven’t made me feel inferior I have not said that.

The point I was making is that young people are told “this isn’t where you belong” from many different angles- some subtle / some less so - and this consciously and subconsciously excludes certain groups from certain places.

in a similar vein I work with many children from a specific minority group and their choice of universities is largely determined by where they feel that group is well represented - no massive spoiler but it isn’t the commonly perceived “elite” institutions.

@Maglin to put it bluntly if that’s how you want it - lots of people (adults) have said to her “do you really want to go there / do you think you’ll fit in” - that’s a very good way of dissuading people from going somewhere!

So what do you suggest? Private school/wealthy grammar school pupils need to go to university somewhere.

And were these people from private school?

You aren’t seriously suggesting private school kids don’t do drugs are you?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7308039/amp/Britains-private-schools-awash-Class-drugs-according-new-study.html

www.tatler.com/article/class-a-drug-use-rise-in-schools

www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/3845955-Drugs-and-party-scene-in-indy-schools

amp.theguardian.com/uk/1999/jan/21/johncarvel

www.isaschools.org.uk/event-calendar/drugs-now-new-substances-new-trends-new-issues-for-independent-schools.html

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

No I feel all instititions should be open to all and representative of our society. I feel many institutions are not doing enough to ensure this is the case - Durham is a prime example - they say so themselves. They need to do better!

Thanks for posting this. I think people can forget or don’t have the imagination to see how many of us are often unwittingly putting up barriers.

MN is great…I’ve learned so much about so many topic on here and it’s my go-to if I have a question about pretty much anything. My kids have gone to private school, we live in London and went to Oxbridge/RG unis, so feel able to talk about those experiences and have a level of knowledge about them. But I’m always aware of how it can exclude people too.

KittyMcKitty makes great points here…and she’s a parent of a child from an affluent area and a grammar school.

I know people near me who are affluent and successful who didn’t go to uni and feel out if their depth and dealing with a world of admissions and applications and league tables that they just do t know about….confident, successful people who have a sense of being from ‘outside’. And I know families in other areas of the countries at schools where no-one and no teacher has ever gone to Oxbridge and very few to RG, and who despite their kids being enormously bright, feel more comfortable looking at their local uni or a much lower ranking one, or who don’t even know which ones are ranked highly or less highly, but somehow do have a sense of where people willbe different to them.

It’s like thinking about 11+ whether for state grammars or independents. Lots of people just have a sense it’s a club and not for them…that surely they couldn’t get in and if they did, it wouldn’t feel like it was for people like them. And these aren’t people living on sink estates or who lack confidence in their day to day lives. But people who are ‘inside’ often can’t begin to imagine that feeling.

I answers this question in my initial post - yes some were / some weren’t (more were).

How? They can hardly stop kids from families you don't like going to the open day!

No, just pointing out that the article you first linked to was about American universities and schools, even though the photo and headline made it look like the UK, not surprised you were taken in.

I'm sure there are drugs in all schools. No dealers hanging about outside my dds school though which was a big reason not to send her to our local comp.

@Maglin you really are just being obtuse. It’s not about stopping people going - and you surely know that - it’s about ensuring those who aren’t going / applying do apply.

surely you can see this - this is the whole point of contextual offers!

Also @Maglin where have I said anything about stopping people I don’t like going? If you’re going to argue at least try and be accurate!

Do you not want our universities to all be places which welcome all students?

I'm not being obtuse!

Universities have contextual offers and the majority of students at any university will have come from state school. I'm not sure what else you expect.

Genuinely there is no point in having this conversation with you if you cannot see the many ways certain minorities are privileged and others excluded.

Maglin, no it’s not about certain groups not applying to those unis or not going.

It’s about acknowledging these barriers which exist and many of us are part of. You are very defensive or combative in your response to Kitty, who has eloquently and without criticism of any group, made excellent points.

People DO receive the message or question ‘you won’t fit in/do you really think it’s for you’ in many subtle and less subtle ways. Sometimes it’s a message coming from those who are privileged or second or third generation university parents who want to ensure their own children have access to the privileges they had. Sometimes it’s a message from other teens….and it doesn’t have to be spoken or direct, but is a loud message when large groups of teens from similar backgrounds behave in a tribal way, which many university students like to do….they are establishing their own identities and groupings and setting themselves apart and enjoying being the ‘successful’ ones who have gained places at prestigious universities. Quite often it’s a message too from others who aren’t so privileged….they can feel threatened if someone like them seems to be about to access opportunities they or their child doesn’t have access too. People like to keep those like them in their place. And it’s difficult not to listen to those voices or let doubt creep in.

I'm really glad I got to go to University before contextual offers.
It was difficult at times being one of only two standard state educated kids on my course. With a very different accent to my peers.
The knowledge that my academics were every bit as strong as theirs was really important to me.
A contextual offer no matter how well deserved would have destroyed that confidence.
I think it also could have impacted how my peers viewed me.

But they aren't excluded.

Sorry pressed send too soon

Durham say that they make contextual offers. I'm not sure what offering lower grades for entry is if it isn't trying to be inclusive. Its really the only thing they can do. If there are braying poshos at the open day just ignore them!

I think Maglin shows quite well how many feel about widening access.

Most people agree with it as a principle, because it’s difficult to do otherwise. However, outreach and contextual offers make people feel uncomfortable too and as if their families are under attack. They have invested a lot in their child’s schooling and their child has been successful and they feel there should be a reward for it. They feel their kids have done really well and deserve their places and somehow it feels they will be displaced by those who did less well or somehow deserve it less. They have done well of course….but with all kinds of support and help which might not have been available to all…and parents and kids often forget that, when they feel a bit aggrieved about contextual offers etc.

Like Maglin, most have accepted contextual offers are needed. She points out that the majority are from state schools and contextual offers are made and then says ‘I’m not sure what else you expect’. But that’s the point isn’t it…it’s not enough. Despite contextual offers and outreach programmes, 40% of Durhams excellent course positions are filled by privately educated children. OTHER barriers continue to exist and stop people going. These aren’t barriers that the rest of us have no part in. We have to see where we are part of the problem. And we are….it’s not just something outside of us.

And I say this as someone with DC in the private system from the SE with parents who’ve been to these unis and value education and would love our DC to go to these places too. I know my DC are likely to go to those places, but not particularly because they are better or cleverer than many of those who won’t apply and won’t go. It’s just it feels the norm to them and to us.

Recognising the problem and that far more needs doing is the start of progress. We really aren’t at a place where what can be done has been done. We do need to expect more Maglin.

Not overtly excluded perhaps @Maglin but there are subtle ways to 'other' people. My dn was from a disadvantaged background but ended up at Oxbridge (got a 1st no less) but she didn't feel she could join in with the holiday talk (no holiday homes), didn't have a clue about hockey, rowing, skiing. She even phoned me just before a formal as she didn't know about the cutlery/glass placement. She's a steely person so got through and found her tribe but it's intimidating (either way of course).