York, Durham, Exeter

[GodessOfThunder]

These universities seem feature in a disproportionate amount of discussion on Mumsnet as institutions commenters see as desirable for their DC to attend. Obviously they are well regarded universities, but why do they attract more discussion here than other Russell group universities, especially those in northern and midlands post-industrial cities such as Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Liverpool, Nottingham and Birmingham?

A few possible reasons were suggested by DH:

• They enjoy an undue level of perceived prestige due to being in smaller old cities/towns like Oxbridge
• The Mumsnet user base is skewed towards the SE and biased against post-industrial cities. Mumsnetters are less likely to be familiar with them and hold “grim up north” perceptions.
• There is a “showing off” factor in starting threads and commenting that DC has applied for, or attends, these institutions - the same goes for the “Oxbridge support” threads, the like of which you never see for red bricks.

Does anyone agree, or are there other explanatory factors?

Met skiing. (Autocorrect gone mad)

My dd is privately educated and has a horse. Or used to, its her sister's now. Just saying.

We live rurally, with loads of liveries in the area. None of the horse owners I know were privately educated. I don't associate horsey people as being privately educated, just people who love horses.

@Maglin well done stereotypical you.

Over 1 in 10 at Surrey Uni from Surrey. Although the uni with the greatest number of undergrads from Surrey is indeed Exeter.

60% of full time undergrads with Surrey as their home domicile attend the 25 unis shown. Red indicates CUG top 20 (as that was kindly listed by another pp earlier in the thread). Lot of red on that graph.

All this business of avoiding private school students is utterly ridiculous. Saying all private school students are 'rahs' is as nonsensical as saying all state school students are 'chavs.' This kind of mentality gets nobody anywhere. If kids can't even cope with others from different types of schools or areas of the U.K., then god help them, that's all I can say. What would they ever do if they find themselves working with people from ... gasp... another country or cultural background? Just treat people as they come.

Btw, my DC is privately educated (London day school). You might have them down as a 'rah' of the London variety - fair enough. But both parents are 'forrin' and from ethnic minorities. One came here as a refugee. So what kind of 'rah' does that make my kids?

Also, they have met a few from Eton etc at uni (what you might think of as British, old-money-type 'rahs') and says they are lovely, very down-to-earth and switched on and why wouldn't they be?

Never mind people from different U.K. school sectors. There will be students at uni from all over the world, including the international jet sets paying god-knows-what in fees. I don't know why anyone would expect (or want) everyone to be like them at uni. Might as well stay home and do something on Open University.

“My bad”: it’s an Americanism for admitting one has made a mistake. I’ve got nothing against Polys.

At university and at work I didn’t mind the druggy public school types. MDMA is a leveller :). The super posh ones who wore Church’s shoes, despite being only 21, and asked you where you went to school when they met you (not realising no one ordinary gives a f*ck), not so much. Their life experience and air of superiority meant no common ground.

Is there no end to it! “Druggy” public school types! Really? Around here none of the druggies went to private school. All state educated and they rob others to get the drugs money. I guess I can find no common ground with you. You sound very biased and very prone to easily disliking others. I would not have any common ground with you. Thank goodness!

Just teach your dc to be decent and respectful people. Don’t assume everyone skis (we’ve never been skiing), don’t ask where they went to school, don’t laugh about how much someone had to pay for their education to end up in the same university. It’s quite simple.

Odd how this argument is never applied the other way round and (at least based on MN posts) wealthy, southern, often privately educated DC continue to flock to Durham, Exeter, Bristol (even going so far as to live in specific halls dominated by wealthy, southern, often privately educated DC) etc, with no condemnation or derision about them not widening their social circle

@ElectricToothbrush quite agree in terms of Durham, and Exeter, however Bristol less so, not even in the top 10 highest indie %, although five or six years back the picture was very different.

Where someone went to school is irrelevant - can’t understand why anyone would be interested? Although from this thread it’s good that many employers blind recruit so no information can be provided on which school or Uni a candidate went to. What someone classes a ‘good’ school or Uni doesn’t make you a good employee.

Still don’t understand some posters definition of a good Uni.

Tbh, privately educated dd will widen her social circle wherever she goes as only 15?% of kids are privately educated.

Asking where someone went to school if you suspect they were privately educated IS relevant, as you are highly likely to know someone else who went there and so it's a conversation starter.

@jooon I entirely agree. It’s tiresome and irrelevant.

It’s also true that state grammar Dc will know each other via sport and social events. But who cares!!!? People start conversations about all sorts of things. Even having a horse. The idea that it’s all about school is not true and everyone can talk about whatever interests them from archery to Zumba.

This constant carping about and stereotyping of others is just ridiculous. I have met many Dc from private schools and they are perfectly decent people. As are the ones from state school. Those who privately educated young people at uni would cheerfully accept them if they saved their life. Dual standards. Discard the oversized chip and move on.

Meh, as I've said previously on MN, several of my best friends, and several of DH's, educated one or more of their kids privately. No skin off my nose and – believe it or not – we are all still friends! They're actually quite normal 😂One was here for a cuppa yesterday, we're going to a gig tomorrow with another…

I think the sooner we get away from the cliches and derogatory terms, on both sides of the fence, the better. Reducing people to a single-term description is always pejorative, right?

That's good to hear, it's one of DS's probable choices along with Exeter, Bath and Southampton but doesn't seem to have the cachet of the others and I don't really know why.

We did visit and I loved the lecturers (comp sci) we met but was disappointed that not much seemed to be being made of the year in industry - only 26% take up since covid apparently - but I don't know how that compares with other places. I was hoping that it's location would mean it was a big thing.

I know plenty of people scraping together just enough money to get their kids through private school, or whose grandparents are paying for it when the parents never could. Not everyone is super rich. I also know a lot of fairly rich parents that send their kids to the very good local comp.

That said DS is anxious about whether he could fit in with kids from private school as they might look down on him, but he's autistic so it's probably the least of his worries tbf bless him.

I have DC who went to York and Exeter and we live in Surrey.

DC - York was an insurance choice and regarded as a 'safe 2nd choice' - top 15 for chosen subject, Russell Group, pseudo-collegiate (although that's a bit of a red herring in reality). Interestingly, they found that York was kind of aspirational/first choice for a lot of Northern students, but a second choice 'in case of emergency' for Southern students.
DC1 had a good experience, got a 1st and started a grad job on £50k, so no complaints.

Other DC - Exeter was top choice as leading university for their subject and DH & I were happy as it seemed an easy transition from their independent school (v. similar style/ people etc) and DC has some issues/ learning difficulties and would probably have struggled in a massive city uni.

The other thing I observe among middle-class parents is that their DC's uni sometimes becomes part of the family lifestyle choice. Exeter has a reputation for high private school intake and I'm sure some of it is related to its sport/sailing credentials and families familiar with the south west of England, perhaps with a house in Cornwall or at least a holiday in Sidmouth! Also, it's an easy train commute from London/ the South East/HomeCounties especially and the M4/M5 corridors. Can be one hell of a schlep from further North though.

Independent schools still promote their lists of the 'top universities' their 6th Form leavers have gone to, and given their target customer parents are people who still remember the rankings from their own uni days, this tends to be Oxbridge, Russell Group and the usual non-RG of Bath, Loughborough, St Andrews etc. I noticed that when they profile a student who has gone to a less traditional uni it tends to be mentioned alongside a phrase such 'as XYZ uni, which is highly rated for specific subject ABC', as if to explain!

Oh, and DC at Exeter had NO idea or interest in where their uni friends went to school! And gave me a withering look when I asked (in true MN style!) 😂

Why on earth are you asking where your DC's Uni friends went to school!

It would bever occur to DD to ask where her friends went to school. She would have expected the answer to be Bristol, Nottingham, Bolton etc rather than a specific school. She has an even split of friends who were privately educated and state educated and doesn't differentiate between them.

Rather shockingly one of her privately educated best friends had about 6 different chemistry teachers at 6th form, and her parents had to get a tutor for her. I was under the impression that teacher retention was better in private schools than state schools.

I'm actually willing to put money on a bet as to how many pupils at Thorpe Hall on the outskirts of Southend, our one and only local indie that goes as far as GCSEs are(n't) on conversational terms with their equivents at, say, Withington Girls School or Wellington College.

On the other hand, state school educated DD has just spent 3 out of her four years at Birmingham sharing accommodation with a young man from Flintshire, who has friends who went to the County Primary that was the first school out of the several that I (an Army Brat) attended. Something that she found out very early on, when her flat were chatting with each other where they came from and she recognised the name of his home town as somewhere that I had spoken about. I agree, on those grounds, that if you don't ask, you may not discover some of the things that you have in common

Your “druggies” sound more like heroin/crack/spice users.

I’m referring to public and private schooled university students who liked their MDMA, weed, Ketamine and occasional cocaine. Several of my fellow partners were from Amersham!

See this study on the higher prevalence of usage among private school kids:

““Privileged” students who live in affluent areas and attend elite schools are at a high risk of turning to cannabis, cocaine and ecstasy, the group of researchers claimed, as well as being more prone to alcohol abuse.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/private-school-pupils-drug-alcohol-addictions-more-likely-new-research-money-fake-id-a7766951.html

Have you actually read that article.

Honestly it's not relevant, although they've done their best to make it seem like it's about this country.

It’s disingenuous or totally lacking in empathy and imagination, if people can’t understand why a significant number of privately educated students (significant meaning significantly above the national average…or perhaps average to your own area) or a significant number of people who are ‘other’ in a typically more privileged sense (maybe from SE or from affluent backgrounds) might be a barrier to those who are not in these groups.

It’s very easy to say we should all mix and teens should be mixing and up for new experiences. When you’re from the typically affluent minority, you start from a position of strength and power, regardless of how people see it. That gives those students who feel they fit a confidence, which others who feel they might not fit cause for concern. And given teens are not always the most aware of these things, possibly lacking in confidence a bit themselves being in a new environment and everyone is looking for friends or their tribe, it can be easy for people to be insensitive and behave in a way that really does make those who are actually the majority, feel they don’t belong…especially at first.

Yes, lots like to ski yearly and going on holiday abroad isn’t something reserved for a tiny proportion of the population, but when 30-40% are privately educated and/or seem to know lots of people at the uni before they’ve even arrived, those coming alone knowing no-one and who have never known anyone to come to this uni, could well feel ‘it’s not for people like me’.

Not recognising this sounds like not understanding why uni outreach schemes or contextual offers are needed. It’s subtle things that make people feel they don’t fit; use of language and terminology they aren’t familiar with, accents, clothes, different expectations and experiences of studying and support, leisure activities etc etc. Thinking all teens can arrive and ‘just get in with it and mix’ is so simplistic.

We don’t seem to have many parents in this thread whose teens aren’t from these privileged backgrounds…and that doesn’t have to be private school alone, but those who have parents who’ve been to similar unis in their youth, or have been able to access the leafy comps and grammars etc. I know I’m one of them. But I know I also know teens from outside the southeast, who even with a pretty middle class background, worry certain unis won’t be for people like them….that they will be full of southerners and poshos who sound different and are different.

As parents on these threads, when we talk about gathering stats about unis, doing lots of research, multiple open days, kids doing MOOCs and wider reading, saving up for living costs because loans will be minimum, where we went to uni and our experiences of 30+ years ago or of the people we know, other parents can immediately feel they are different and it’s not for their kids or their kids, even though bright might not fit in. Maybe they would do better at a more local place or a different type of uni.

I just think we need more imagination about it. And when the teens are there at uni and talking bout their friends at home and what they’re going to be doing in the holidays etc etc, they too need to be aware that the person keeping rather quiet might well feel their own experiences are very different and do t want to draw attention to themselves and advertise it. And because they don’t, it’s easily missed.