York, Durham, Exeter

[GodessOfThunder]

These universities seem feature in a disproportionate amount of discussion on Mumsnet as institutions commenters see as desirable for their DC to attend. Obviously they are well regarded universities, but why do they attract more discussion here than other Russell group universities, especially those in northern and midlands post-industrial cities such as Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Liverpool, Nottingham and Birmingham?

A few possible reasons were suggested by DH:

• They enjoy an undue level of perceived prestige due to being in smaller old cities/towns like Oxbridge
• The Mumsnet user base is skewed towards the SE and biased against post-industrial cities. Mumsnetters are less likely to be familiar with them and hold “grim up north” perceptions.
• There is a “showing off” factor in starting threads and commenting that DC has applied for, or attends, these institutions - the same goes for the “Oxbridge support” threads, the like of which you never see for red bricks.

Does anyone agree, or are there other explanatory factors?

You’re still missing the point. It’s about ensuring students actually apply to places like Durham in the first place when so many subtle barriers exist telling young people they do not belong there.

Contextual offers are of no use if a student hasn’t actually applied.

As I said way up thread Durham recognise that this is a problem - they are very vocally saying they need to do better and that their applicants are skewed towards certain demographics. As I have said all along they need to create a system where their applicants reflect the society we live in - because they can’t offer to people who don’t apply. It’s not about ignoring poshos at an open day - it’s about making young people from all socio economic groups feel that Durham is somewhere they could belong - and the university very openly acknowledge that, as things stand, they are not doing that.

Do you understand that people are excluded by a wide variety of things, far beyond the uni being willing to receive their application? Even with contextual offers, people still feel excluded.

You say what else can unis do? You probably wonder how any of us can be seen to have anything to do with this exclusion and that it’s all from somewhere beyond ‘us’. It’s endemic and it’s societal. That’s the point.

Unis need to do more. Schools need to do more. Those with privilege need to do more (not just letting children from the local school use their swimming pool so they can keep the charitable tax status of schools - are those schools willing to offer uni prep to the bright children from local schools, so they become rivals for uni places….probably not)

We need to acknowledge the barriers and that more needs doing….and where we fit into contributing to barriers, however unknowingly.

why wouldn't they be?

Have you not witnessed the arrogant, incompetent old Etonian plonkers that have made such a pig’s ear of running the country over the past decade?

This most recent bout of Tory rule has, I think, made many people more wary of those with unearned privilege, such as through private education. Because the most high profile examples seem to lack empathy, honesty and even basic competence.

So do you assume all private school kids are like this? If you do, then best do your research and avoid universities with a high proportion of privately educated kids. It's probably quite easy to do.

The commenter asked that question specifically of Etonians, hence my reply.

I have worked for decades with scores of privately educated people, some from elite schools and some from less elite schools. Generally, yes, I have found many to m: a) have a confidence that, in the real world, often comes across as off putting arrogance, and b) lack empathy with, and understanding of, those outside their bubble. Not all, but many.

OK. I'm not interested in trying to change your mind about privately educated kids IIf you genuinely have a job working with people you clearly despise then I feel quite sorry for you.

Well it’s a non-conversation starter when it’s asked of those that didn’t, as I have frequently witnessed. And it just makes people sound like bragging privileged to*sers when it’s overheard.

Oh well. I'm sure they aren't bothered what an eavesdropper thinks. Plenty of private school kids are extremely clever so can almost certainly have a decent conversation.

If you want to think like that, @GodessOfThunder , then it is what it is. I mean, it seems blatantly obvious to me that there are all types of individuals across all school sectors.

If children from 'state schools' find it hard to mix with those from 'private schools' at university, perhaps it might help if they spare a thought for the Koreans or Chinese or Indian students, arriving from totally different education systems and cultures. Would any of these international students be able to tell the difference between somebody from a U.K. grammar, a comp or an independent school? Would they care? I doubt it.

Perhaps the state school students should.do more to make those international students feel included. After all, the private school kids will have lots of experience with international students already but they'll be new for most state students. As the majority, they have a moral duty to make them feel at home.

Oh dear. Now it’s exactly this kind of conversation Maglin, that makes people feel excluded, unwelcome or different. It’s absolutely this stuff that perpetuates division and exclusion. But I guess some people actively want to do that, even if they won’t acknowledge it.

Fortunately, many privately educated teens will be told very clearly by their parents NOT to go round asking where people went to school, where they go on holiday etc.

There is a real problem when those who have paid for their schooling, feel the access to educational opportunity isn’t enough for their fees, but they also need to use it to continue us to build barriers and fortresses well beyond it. It’s delusional to think asking ‘where di you go to school’ is purely a conversation starter. Clearly only those who feel extremely proud of their school or that it continues to define them after they have left, ask that Q. It’s designed to either find people from a similar background, or to identify those who aren’t.

Sorry to say, but this thread will sadly have confirmed the views many already had about Exeter, York, Durham and others not being inclusive or ‘for people like them’. Even when most people from more privileged backgrounds don’t go round asking ‘where did you go to school’ etc, the fact that some do, acts as a barrier. But again, I guess it’s what people want to do even if they won’t admit it.

So sorry Goddess…was trying to quote Maglin and made an error. My comments were to her/him and not you.

Actually the where did you go to school question is a very convenient shorthand to identify members of your club and exclude those who aren’t members of it.

Im sure with many it’s an unconscious thing but it is still a thing and people do need to acknowledge these things and the affect they have on others.

I struggle to believe that someone from a private school is, as you say, “highly likely” to know someone at another private school - there are over 2,000 in England! There are 3000 odd state secondary schools in England and I only know people from a small %. So I really do disagree with your statement. It’s a conversation opener yes but also a way of finding, as I say, members of your club.

I have no real issue with this - more so with people Not acknowledging it.

This thread is spiralling in all sorts of directions and is now overlapping with some of the "is private school a good idea?" threads!

I think that there are barriers, subtle or not, to applications to "elite" universities. Oxbridge, being in the public eye, have arguably done more to challenge these directly than the rest of the RG+.

I was on a 100% scholarship to a private school and then went to Oxbridge, collected a few more degrees, and am now a teacher in the private sector (academic, "provincial" school). Neither of my parents went to uni; they were white-collar non-professionals (is that 'working class'?) My DD is now at a post-'92 (art school) and my DS (in Y11) is aiming for RG+ for engineering. Both in my teaching job, and when I was at uni, I've encountered all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds.

There's always an interesting assumption on these threads that bright young underprivileged students WANT to go to the so-called elite universities of Oxbridge or Durham etc. Many of them don't! They might want to be around people with a similar background and values to themselves in just the same way an independent school child might (although I personally think parents are much more hung up on this sort of thing than their offspring are!) My DC at York said lots of his Northern-based friends with stellar A levels had positively rejected Durham and Oxbridge in favour of 'more balanced' York.

I think we're already seeing some interesting shifts in attitudes about what constitutes an 'elite' university anyway. It's not just about top academics - it's also about wealth and power too and widening participation and making entry more mainstream by its very nature reduces the 'elite' status. (I'm not saying that's not a worthy objective, but it changes the profile). It's already clear that universities like St. Andrews and Durham are now overtaking Oxbridge on the 'elite' front with regard to the wealthy and privately educated students who find Oxbridge is no longer an option for them.

Back in the 1980s I went to Bristol which was considered very posh, elitist/ 'Sloane Rangery' in those days! I was a Northern lass from an inner city comprehensive and chose it because I thought it was aspirational and would help me meet people who were rich, powerful and 'going places' 😂but a lot of my friends thought I was mad. Bristol has definitely lost its 'edge' these days and in fact I don't really know what it stands for any more - it seems to have lost its way a bit?

@KittyMcKitty Once upon a time I spent an Easter holiday teaching a residential A-level revision course which charged stupidly high fees. Many of the students, who obviously didn't want to be there, spent their time chatting about mutual acquaintances or where their ski chalets were, etc. Whether consciously or not this really, really, excluded the lovely student who had scrimped and saved to attend this course because she had a non-specialist teacher at her school. It left a horrible taste in my mouth and I didn't do it again.

(It was probably unprofessional of me but I spent most of my time helping her, and one of the nicest letters I've received in my life was an unexpected card, forwarded from the agency who ran it, thanking me for helping her improve her result by two grades and get to uni.)

@NormaSnorks that was pretty much my point - that these universities are not attracting these students to apply - and this is what they need to work on. Anyway I (and others) have talked about this in far more detail upthread so I won’t repeat.

@PhotoDad that's a lovely story and really exemplifies the way privileged groups exclude those they see as other. And it’s great you recognised this and even better that she achieved her goal.

I just want to say thanks to @WombatChocolate and @KittyMcKitty for their thoughtful posts. It's refreshing to see these arguments made by people acknowledging their own privilege.

They were great posts - agreed.

But to play devil's advocate, WHY do they need to work on it if the students don't want to go there?
Again, I'm not endorsing the status quo, but just pointing out that making something more accessible to all, by definition, reduces its 'elite' status.
In my experience money and power just moves to another club to maintain the 'elite' elsewhere.

...because the universities in the UK are funded by the Government, which should be promoting equality of opportunity? People who want a club are free to join a private one. (Tuition fees are only part of the story for uni funding.)

@NormaSnorks play devil’s advocate by all means but I’m not answering your question beyond saying that it needs changing because all young people have equal rights to equal access - I think you are confusing elite with exclusive (or maybe exclusionary).

It needs changing because a person is not worth more just because of their background or how much money their parents spent on their education. It needs changing because we need to raise up the disadvanged and strive towards a society where we are all equal.

But you know this …

And Norma, you have to ask the Q, why don’t they want to go to these places if they are the best academic institutions?

Do they not want to go because they don’t want to go to the best? Do they not want to go because it feels like it’s not for people like them? If it’s the latter, it’s not really a choice not to avail themselves of the best they might be academically suited for, but because if a significant barrier that is preventing them accessing it.

On one level, I agree that broadening access and making things more meritocratic or by broadening access, some places will become less accessible to the privileged but not academically top notch kids. They might choose and find new places that their ‘type’ go for - and it could be that places like Exeter fit that bill a bit. They aren’t academically elite but might become greater bastions of social privilege if they aren’t careful. Exeter is one of those that likes to indicate it requires very high grads,but will often accept students who miss their offer, so the actual grades if many students are not as top notch as people might imagine. It’s marketed as being academic and of course it is pretty selective, and that’s important for its demographic.

However, what’s important is that everyone has genuine access to the best options, regardless of finances and background. Obvious barriers have existed such as differing qualities of schooling, which contextual offers go some way (but not far enough) to addressing. But there remain more insidious and difficult to address barriers, which have been mentioned on this thread. There are social barriers which are wittingly maintained (students or their parents asking what school fellow students went to) and unwittingly present. There are cultural norms and traditions in some universities which make students from some backgrounds feel at home and those from others feel like fish out of water….think things like formal dinners, culture in sports or other clubs, processes for accessing accommodation for the 2nd year etc etc. The barriers exist for the students and also for their parents who are hugely instrumental in what their kids do next. University applications, funding and league tables and everything about them can feel a closed shop to those who haven’t been. You might have to work quite hard to access that info. It’s another barrier. And then there’s the ongoing class and regional divides in the UK. When people ‘like you’ ask if you or your child ‘will really fit in or feel at home’ in X place, it creates doubt and fuels concerns. Yes, the very determined overcome these things and make it to the best u ivsersities, but why should some need to be so very determined when for others it’s a smooth ride in?

It’s up to government and universities and the education system generally and all of us to keep looking for the barriers and bringing them down. Threads like this do a bit if that, but also work to out up barriers too.

Two particular barriers which have struck me recently, is how the UK trend to go away to uni is a big barrier for many. In other countries, people study at their home uni. Here, going away is remembered fondly by parents who did it and want the same for their kids. But for those who didn’t, going away and especially the huge costs involved can be a real barrier. The other that struck me is the sheer cost of Open Days. A long journey by train and an overnight accommodation and food can set a parent and child back by several hundred pounds - just for one Open Day. It’s not a surprise people don’t want to visit the far flung Exeter and Durham. And a sense that uni is only for earnest, nerdy types can be a real barrier for families who might be affluent but don’t have a history of going to uni. Friends of mine have far more cash than we do and live in an expensive area of London. They have a very clever DS who could go to a top uni, but his parents worry that their football loving, booze loving and low culture loving son won’t find people similar to him at top unis and it will all be maths nerds, opera and lacrosse and he won’t fit in….or they won’t fit in when they go to pick him up.

These things are societal and systemic. They continue into the workplace and they start far before uni. Uni is just one place, but a really important one to be working on. But that’s threatening to those who are already part of the ‘in crowd’.

I am not sure people can have it both ways - either places like Durham are no better than the less posh ones quoted in which case who cares if they are full of Rahs and hooray henrys or they are better than the other universities in which case the left presumably want to stop better off people going to them?

If they are no better than surely it doesn't matter if the birds of a feather whether very badly off or rich choose to flock together? The 3 of my children who went to Bristol ha a great time there and met lots of different people.

I presume no one wants private school pupils excluded from all the better universities or allocated to London Met or some other kind of socialist experiment?