Should DS do a Big 4 Apprenticeship or go to Cambridge?

[StressedaboutUni]

DS has managed to get a Big4 Apprenticeship in Accountancy and he has also managed to get an offer to read economics at Cambridge. Assuming he gets the grades, he is not sure which one to pick. Going to the apprenticeship would give him the opportunity to save 60k over three years vs 45k debt. He would also be able to become fully qualified accountant in 4 years. He would not get a degree though.
Cambridge would open doors for him in other industries that he may consider in the future such as Investment Banking or Management Consultancy.
He is really confused on what to do.

Interesting to read this debate. Would love to know if people advise the same if the option was between an apprenticeship and say Durham or Bath and to study accounting rather than economics?

No brainier at all.

Economics at Cambridge. Ex big 4 here.

There’s no point in studying accounting for a degree. You get a couple of exemptions in your first lot of professional exams- that’s it. I’d always advise someone to just do the apprenticeship rather than do an accounting degree.

I am ex big 4 accountant. I didn't do a degree prior to qualifying as an ACA and always regretted it. Cambridge will be worth it!

I don’t know why this is even a dilemma.

Hi firefly. Out of interest, why do you regret it? Do you think it’s held you back professionally or just because you think you missed out on the uni experience?

reason I ask is that I get the impression ( possibly wrongly) that uni is much less of an experience now than it was. Just seems much more transactional/ less immersive/ less fun tbh.

@AbsoIutelyLovely It is a dilemma because it would have a big impact on DS’s professional life whatever he chooses.

Thanks everyone for your advice, I have shown them to DS, and I think he is pretty certain he will choose Cambridge due to the experience and potential to keep more doors open. Now he needs to get the grades!

@illiterato I don’t think that applies to everyone. It’s perfectly possible to work hard and play hard. We never felt it was transactional for DDs. DHs parents had to pay for his maintenance too 50 years ago. University never was free to the majority. Just no student loans.

I think you have to be sure that you really want work and that particular company. Often elite university grads get choice. That disappears at 18 with an apprenticeship.

As an aside, I’m quite surprised accountants don’t require a relevant accredited degree or conversion course. Most professionals do these days.

Yes but massive difference between maintenance and fees. Fees are 9k a year. Maintenance was a fraction of that, at least where I went as short terms and college accommodation. Poorer students still got grants ( early 90s). Possibly I get an inaccurate impression of uni from MN as I guess you only hear of the problems. Just seems everyone has accommodation issues, has a tonne of online lectures/ seminars ao just squirrels themselves away in their room and ping pongs between home and uni so they’re empty at weekends.

re conversion for accountancy, the first set of professional exams are the conversion. If you have an accounting degree you only have to do a couple of the papers. I think it’s quite sensible. Accountancy doesn’t have the cache that law does so if you block anyone without a relevant degree you’ll narrow your candidate pool considerably. Paying for post grad law conversion plus law/ bar school was a lot of debt for some of my friends who took they route, with no guarantee of training contract. Plus the accountancy content is much easier to absorb when you’re doing it alongside working rather than in isolation. Ultimately, it’s not hugely conceptually complex. It’s just technical content so makes sense for it to be on the job rather than a degree IMO.

As an aside, I’m quite surprised accountants don’t require a relevant accredited degree or conversion course. Most professionals do these days.

The first year of the ACA is effectively the conversion course so the degree doesn't matter. In fact, most of my intake had entirely unconnected courses (geography, history, english etc).

Ironically the only person sacked from my (then) big six firm from my cohort was a friend who'd had a couple of exemptions from the first year exams. He failed an exam in our first year and they got rid of him as they felt he should have passed it given he had exemptions.

Poor chap never even made it into the office part. Plenty of others failed their exams but were allowed to retake them.

The reason it would be a huge mistake is that if he hates accountancy he would have nothing, no choice left. Oxbridge grads have their pick, I’m married to one and he is constantly head hunted. Plus on a secondary level the uni experience is important anyway. Good luck

We were not allowed to retake ( actually I think one person was allowed to retake a referral due to extenuating circumstances). They overrecruited as knew they’d lose 10% at the conversion hurdle. Nearly everyone who got fired ended up being a recruitment consultant, poaching their old mates into IB jobs once they qualified. Because of when I joined I’d done 6 months of work before I did my exams which I think helped

Ah I see. I do actually think it’s good to not close off routes into a profession. I assume if you don’t need a degree for accountancy, the apprenticeships won’t include it. So are shorter and cheaper.

We were not allowed to retake ( actually I think one person was allowed to retake a referral due to extenuating circumstances). They overrecruited as knew they’d lose 10% at the conversion hurdle.

That's hard core! Lots of my intake (at Arthur Andersen) failed at least one of their ACA exams over the three years.

Not only did I manage to just fail the business and financial planning module (which was one of my strongest modules, or so I thought) but I had to reschedule my wedding to retake it. Aagh.

I missed out on the experience. In no way did it hold me back in my career and in fact I defied the odds and made it to director level in a big 4 firm. I didn't even have maths A level, just two A levels at very average grade.

Academic ability is not the most important skill to being successful in a career in accountancy. I had to coach out the most academically qualified student in my department one year because he was not suited to the role. He did nothing wrong but was not commercially-minded. I recommended him for a position at a law firm where he excelled - a different set of skills was required. At a high level, clients need lateral thinkers not those who have memorised a text book.

I retired very young and decided to do a degree at that stage. I did a BSc and Masters in an unrelated subject, purely for personal interest. I loved it.

@Firefly2023 thx. Makes sense.

I’m not an expert on this but thought that the better accounting degrees give student 12 exemptions out of the 15 accounting exams. That seems easier than doing the exams while working at the same time.

Assuming the big 4 hasn't completely changed, they give you lots of study leave to complete your study and exams, so it really isn't like working and doing exams at the same time. In my first year I was at college more than I was at work. We had an apprentice in our intake and I think she had a similar arrangement. Smaller accounting firms may give less leave and I really feel for people trying to do exams whilst working in industry. In my experience, in industry people usually go to college in the evenings and weekends and might get given a day or two off for each exam. That is a much harder way to complete a qualification and exemptions are really useful then.

Going back a few years, but we always rejected candidates with accountancy or business studies degrees outright. I doubt this is the case anymore with blind recruiting. We preferred to recruit candidates that had shown a wider interest in the world. Clients come from a real spectrum of industries and backgrounds so having more than just an interest in accountancy is really important. The industry already has the reputation for being boring and I think that someone with an accountancy degree comes across as the epitome of that! Economics is fine.

Wow. What a blinkered view.

@StressedaboutUni he should go to Cambridge no question. If he is of the caliber to receive not only an apprenticeship from the big4 and a place at Cambridge, he is a person who will go places. Just need some self belief.

Many congratulations to him. Thousands of talented kids would be overjoyed with one of those options and he has two. Never underestimate himself. He IS special. Sorry if I offend anyone else by saying this but it is true

Hi everyone. Just wanted to update this thread in case anyone wondered what DS chose to do. He fortunately managed to get 4A* in A levels and has chosen to go to Cambridge, in little under 2 weeks.
Thanks everyone for your advice, I showed it to him and I think he realised that Cambridge as an experience in itself will be rewarding for him.
He did an internship this summer too, so he could make some money before uni and get valuable work experience.

4 A starts is brilliant . He is definitely doing the right thing in going to Cambridge. I have a relative there at the moment and it can be a great experience. Good luck to him.

Amazing well done to him! You must be very proud

Thanks @Xenia. Yes he is very excited to start and make the most of the experience.

His internship this summer confirmed to him that he isn’t ready yet for full time work which an apprenticeship would have entailed, and he is glad to be staying in full time education.