Medicine 2023 Entry - Part 4

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Anyone out there with DC applying or reapplying for Medicine 2023, please join a friendly thread for mutual support and useful advice.

We are also abroad and have the double whammy that you need to be 18 for most volunteering, especially in a care or healthcare setting. Mine shadowed a paediatrician in the main teaching hospital for a couple of days, plus did some hand holding on an oncology ward. She wasn’t allowed to do anything else because still technically a minor. She did apply to the Red Cross where they take you at 16 but first you need to do a course and the nearest ones were miles away and always during the school week. It’s a minefield and not practical for applying to U.K. universities where they expect a ton of experience.

we were eligible for home fees (checked and it was confirmed), but DD didn’t get into any of the med schools in the U.K despite having really high predicted grades in her IB. I suspect also the fact she is at an international (and therefore private) school went against her as one of the rejections she got cited a large number of contextual applicants, or words to that effect. We are now waiting on Ireland, which is better for us as she is an EU citizen, or she can go locally as bilingual.

Congrats to all in receipt of recent offers. My DS has now firmed his first choice of Birmingham and insured his second. He's glad to have done that now. Just those A levels to nail now! Looking forward to the forthcoming offer holder days too.

@toomuchlikemyusername good news to have firmed and insured. My dd is visiting Edinburgh today (medicinal chemistry offerholder day - they paid for train ticket!) - she's using it to get more of a feel before deciding between Edi and Newcastle for insurance. Glasgow most likely for firm.

Congratulations on the firming stage. Nice to get it done and focus on those pesky exams.

I would like to clarify for any newcomers reading this thread that the vast majority of UK Unis do not need lots of work experience. Most don't even read the PS. However what they do like is some customer facing experience, so working in a cafe or shop. Showing resilience, time management, patience and commitment. Gives you things to talk about at interview.

And there are no quotas for WP and no limits on how many from each type of school. Medicine is still v v heavily weighted with private students.

Good luck to everyone still waiting. And for anyone going again next year good luck. Smash those grades as it makes it so much easier to have an unconditional offer by Jan 😊

Medicine is still v v heavily weighted with private students.

Hmmm. Just viewed my medical school's data on the GMC progression reports. 2020 intake was just over 10% from private schools. Nationally, it's just under 20% but it varies greatly among institutions. Lowest is 8.8%, so far as I can see. Some have higher proportions: I think you have a daughter at Nottingham, which is about 25% privately educated, towards the upper end of the range. I think UCL is the highest, with over 30% privately educated.

@NoNotHimTheOtherOne each med school differs, lowest is 7% private and highest is 42% (2019 figures from UCAS conference). But those figures can be manipulated many ways - some private school students get WP and contextual offers. It doesn't really matter though. There are no quotas, they take who they think are best.

And many many students from Grammar schools (which we know are all stuffed full of FSM students 😡).

@mumsneedwine - I was disagreeing with your statement that "Medicine is still v v heavily weighted with private students." Hence the quoted statistics. Anything over 14% (approx proportion of A-Level students who attend private schools) is too high, but there are many medical schools whose privately-educated intake is lower than this. I don't think it's fair to accuse us all of favouring applicants from private schools.

I agree with you that the criteria for WP and "contextual" status are sometimes perverse. Universities are judged on their commitment to widening participation but we have been asking for a definition of WP for at least 20 years and none has ever been forthcoming, so each university defines it in its own way. Many of these definitions are based on postcode data that are, at best, misleading and that the Office for Students itself says should not be used to define WP status.

Grammar schools are troublesome. They present a massive problem for places like Kent & Medway, which wants to recruit local, disadvantaged students but has to negotiate a local school system where 70% of students are excluded from academically oriented schools and many of these attend schools/colleges that don't offer A-Levels. As entry to grammar school is far too heavily dependent on parental input (coaching, buying private tutoring, etc.), this obviously has a disproportionate effect on less well-off, first-in-family in HE students. On the other hand, in many inner-city areas, grammar school students are predominantly the children of low-earning Asian & African parents and their teachers argue passionately that the students are significantly disadvantaged.

We all work in a very messy system. It is worth calling out universities on WP/contextual criteria that offer advantages to already-advantaged students. If enough people join in, they will change. It's usually inertia rather than intent that allows these anomalies to persist.

@mumsneedwine are there really many, many grammar school DC taking medicine places? Suprising as I thought the sector accounted for a tiny % of sixth form students. Just my own observations but in both my DC's grammars there seems to be an exodus from pursuing Medicine. The majority flock towards Economics, CS, Law, History/Politics/PPE, Maths and Engineering. I understand how in an area like Kent and Medway that grammar schools are troublesome but do they really have a significant impact overall?

Unis will take the students they believe are 'best'. And most now have fantastic WP programmes, some of which I've helped them build 😇. But it is still a bit of a middle class degree, partly because it is expensive (a liveable NHS bursary would help).

Anyways, off to mark year 13 mocks. Enjoy the rest of Easter.

I agree that it is likely to be middle class dominated, but I think 90% of applicants are blissfully unaware of the funding issues from Year 5!

WP programmes are a mess, I am 100% behind the objective that career paths should be open to all on merit but I don't know how you can define a fair system. Scotland has generally gone ridiculously overboard on WP - last year for law at Edinburgh there were so many Scottish WP applicants who were automatically entitled to offers that NOT ONE offer was made to non-WP applicants https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-64247475! I think it is ridiculous that they give an extra 10% on UCAT for WP, as UCAT is designed to be an exam which tests ability rather than education. So recently at Edinburgh a UK WP applicant needed around 2700 (top 30%) and a non-WP applicant needed 3000 (top 2-3%).

BUT more importantly @mumsneedwine, has DD got the job she wanted?

@Monkey2001 😂 love that you remember all the key dates. Yes, first choice of jobs so she has the 6 rotations she wanted, in the best order. She's happy - and already looking at flats ! All getting a bit real.

I think it is ridiculous that they give an extra 10% on UCAT for WP, as UCAT is designed to be an exam which tests ability rather than education.

I think "designed" in that sentence should be "hoped" or "intended". It exhibits very similar schooling effects to A-Level grades, and a recent report suggested students who pay for help with preparation perform better: https://bmcmededuc.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12909-022-03811-y. So there is obviously going to be a higher score on average for students who can afford to pay (or whose schools can afford to pay) for commercial preparation materials/courses.

@NoNotHimTheOtherOne I 100% agree that something like Medify or Medentry makes a difference to performance on UCAT, so it would be a good idea to provide them free to anyone registering for UCAT, a higher charge for the UCAT to reflect that would be fine as a bursary is available for people who need help to pay. BMAT provide all the resources you need, UCAT should be the same.

@mumsneedwine great news, she must have aced the SJT (or want something very offbeat!) Exciting times.

@Monkey2001 she aced the SJT 😊.

Medify do bursaries for students. And UCAT waive the fee for certain students. It is a fine line to get WP right and I do agree Edinburgh seem to have gone a bit far. But on the whole it seems to be working (I may be biased as lots of my students qualify, having 3 or more contextual flags - you usually need more than one so bring dirt poor is not always enough).

I fully support WP provided it is done properly. Free access to Medify is surely the best leveller for the UCAT rather than some arbitrary score adjustment. It is too significant an element of the process to get wrong. The Edinburgh situation is crazy.

Hi Everybody, my DS still wants to defer and start in 2024. We talked to Bristol and Liverpool admission teams and he needs to apply to them by explaining his reasons. They will then decide. He wants to do some physical challenges, travel and work during this time. Sheffield accepts it with no questions. We would prefer him to take a gap year at the end of his studies but I think I read in this forum that this is not recommended for medical students since when they finish they have to start their new challenges. Liverpool was going to be an insurance choice perhaps due to a lower offer but we don't know what DS might choose if they say no. So everything is up in the air. I think he will write to them in the next few days. Fingers crossed. Hope all your DCs are managing to focus on their exams. Good luck to all of them 🍀

@Cratos - Bear in mind that the medical licensing assessment (MLA) will only be valid for 2 years, so if the final written exam (applied knowledge test, AKT) is in year 4 (as at Liverpool, for example), taking a year out before starting FY1 might be risky, depending on how, exactly, the GMC chooses to define a year. More than 2 calendar years would have elapsed between sitting the exam and starting FY1, so they might not be allowed to join the foundation programme. I'm not sure when this will be fully clarified but it might not be a good idea to set out with the intention of having a gap year immediately after graduating.

@Cratos you may not have noticed that term lengths vary significantly. Sheffield only give them 1 year of full student holidays, but St Andrews they have 3 x 4 months off. I think it is worth factoring the number of timetabled weeks in if he is considering ones which aren't keen on the gap year.

@NoNotHimTheOtherOne thank you for this insight. We didn't realise this.

@Monkey2001 thank you. That is interesting. We thought there may be slight variations but not as much as this. I guess we need to contact schools again to find out this information. Perhaps their website might have it as well. We noticed start dates are different (Beginning of September vs end of September for ex.)

I would agree the courses vary a lot regarding this and it is worth investigating. My DD was sure she wanted a year off, partly due to losing so much general growing up experience due to covid, partly to put more distance between the covid bulge years in training, but also because of the issue that a gap year later just may not be possible. It was one of the reasons for her choice of Sheffield- as to be honest she just wanted some time to travel and not have to justify doing something necessarily related to medicine. She is having a fantastic year away working and travelling. I think it has been incredibly beneficial for her, and she's already got her accommodation sorted as you can apply straight away with no waiting for offers etc. She also liked it that Sheffield viewed a year off so positively.

I am trying to understand the cost of a medical degree, as mentioned above. Are the main additional costs the 2 years extra study and the reduced student loan in years 5 and 6?
My DD is Year 11 and I have been working towards paying c. £6k a year for 3 years to top-up a loan for a standard degree. Our household income is around 70k, so she'd get the minimum loan. She's tentatively thinking about medicine, so should I now be thinking of the £18k plus another £16k for years 5 and 6? The numbers start getting quite stressful, especially as my DS is 3 years younger, so probably ready to go to university as DD goes into year 5.
Also, do medical students generally need their own car to get to placements? She doesn't even want to drive at the moment, but obviously that would be a significant extra cost.

BTW I realise there are other costs to the medicine graduate as they progress, but I suppose my initial concern is the amount I will need to pay as the parent of a student, because that already seems out of my league!

@ColouringPencils it's only the last year that's tougher. Because the NHS pay their fees they are only eligible for a reduced SFE loan, minimum £1,950 this year. They also get an NHS bursary of £1,000 min.

Other costs depend on the Uni. Placement accommodation is funded at lots of places, as is petrol for commuting (can also be claimed from NHS in 5th year). But at others it's not.

Car is v useful, but car sharing v common (lack of parking permits causes this). So don't need to drive or have a car as others will.

Other thing us that because they are at Uni pretty much 46 weeks if the year from year 3/4 they need more food and bills money away from family home. However mine has always managed on the £4,000 odd loan. Too busy to go out much !