I’m an American AMA about US universities

[Dilemoth]

I know US universities/colleges have become more popular and would like to help if possible.

Context: Have children in high school in the southeast part of the US applying to college soon.

the well known ivy leagues sound great but are there many smaller local colleges with good reputations? hopefully a few per state?

@greenspaces4peace Yes, there’s typically at least a top public university and then a top private in each state. Although more of the better universities are more concentrated on the east or west coasts (as well as the New England area), versus somewhere like North Dakota.

I’ll give you the example of UNC Chapel Hill (public) in NC and Duke or Davidson (private). Or in Virginia there’s University of Virginia (public) and William and Mary (private).

yes i've heard of william and mary.
there are some beautiful usa states, i would be proud if any of my grandchildren attended.

What are the fu ding arrangements for American citizens in both fees and student support provision?

Is it true that the AP tests that American kids take in addition to SATS to get into the most prestigious universities are actually only equivalent to the A Levels that all kids in the UK take? And that the first year of American uni covers a lot of basic stuff that would be taught in high school in most other countries?

whats the difference between private & public?

Are there many scholarships or assisted places available and how do they work?

How do the economics of it all add up? I don’t understand the enormous plush facilities and apparently much better academic wages at US universities than the UK equivalents would have? Is going to university in the US just way way more expensive for families to pay for than the (already outrageously expensive) UK?
Does the US government give US universities subsidy of any kind? I wish the UK government subsidised universities here because they are a key UK industry and part of our USP overseas and the student as paying customers has really ruined academic rigour in lots of subjects.

I wish the UK government subsidised universities here because they are a key UK industry and part of our USP overseas and the student as paying customers has really ruined academic rigour in lots of subjects.

I really don't. Given the level of public debt and cost of living crisis, I'd be aghast if the government spent money subsidising overseas students. Given the ever-growing numbers, it seems like plenty of overseas students can afford it (academic rigour aside).

I don’t think the previous poster meant to subsidise foreign students. Subsidies would be to improve the quality of teaching and wages in order to maintain academic rigour. Universities have become far too dependent on recruiting overseas students in order to finance themselves. This model is disastrous for UK students.

Exactly what CowboyHat said. I didn’t mean funding for universities for overseas students. Subsidies for UK universities to fund UK students are what we need. Overseas students should continue to pay top whack to study in UK. But this can’t be universities only source of revenue.
We will always need some of the UK workforce to be very highly educated (on merit not parental income). Not all highly educated people go on to well paid industries so the student loans model is choking off supply of quality well educated candidates in the public services for example which we all rely on.

At times of economic crisis/collapse we need that very highly educated segment even more to help grow the economy out of it.

And I hope it goes without saying that in the UK we urgently need to secure decently paid practical skills for the future in the UK workforce too which the Tories have also been rubbish at securing.

At the same time they’ve presided over the decline of UK universities and of course Brexit which has removed the EU funding which was propping up many UK universities. Apart from the fees they can get from overseas students which is a very unreliable global market.
Hence my qu about US universities and whether they get big U.S. government subsidies.

@WhartyFif have you looked at tuition fees? That's how US universities are funded. Plus they have huge alumni drives to encourage donations. It's not unheard of for a wealthy graduate to donate a lot of money to their old university.
Here's an example: Tuition fees at Boston University (a highly regarded large university that has a medical school, business, education school and so on) are $60,000 a year. Plus $18,000 for room and dining plan. On top, books and medical insurance plus incidentals.
For US students, there is needs based financial aid, which is up to 100% for first year students. There are other government schemes and payment plans, some involve the student working on campus for example. There are also merit based scholarships. And some students can find financial help through special funding like their church or minority group.
These are not available to international students, though there are some merit based scholarships (for gifted athletes, for example).

Thanks Monday it’s a really different system for sure.

@WhartyFif and @dew141 the UK government does provide block grants to universities, for research. These are allocated by the four countries, the Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE) etc on the basis of the periodic and constantly renamed research assessment exercises such as REF 2021.

The US does not have a similar framework, but states support their public universities in return for low tuition fees for state residents. The fees dichotomy at public universities is usually (or was when I taught in a major one) in state/ out of state, with no special category for international students.

Some American universities offer financial aid to international students also, but I fear this is still the exception. On a recent thread @tizerorfizz suggested the Fulbright Foundation as a good source for further information and I thought this was an excellent idea.

American financial aid, particularly needs based, tends to be beyond the imaginings of the British, so it is def worth investigating where this can be found

I also happen to agree with what @CowboyHat and what @WhartyFif said about UK government support for teaching and learning in HE. Right now T&L is running at a loss for Home students and is not sustainable. Arguably the present standoff, which universities are coping with by recruiting more Overseas students, is the result of the greed resulting from everyone electing to charge maximum fees originally. (Who didn’t see that coming?)

U.K. universities are subsidised.

Not to derail but William & Mary is actually public too. It's known as one of the "public Ivies".

@CowboyHat Oxbridge considers 5 AP's (with a grade 5) to be the equivalent of 3 A star a-levels. The kids getting into the most prestigious US universities are likely to have taken at least 10 AP's, probably more.
My own DS will have 15 when he graduates High school so I guess Oxbridge would consider that the same as having 9 top a-levels so it's not easy to stand out and get into the top schools.
Having said that, AP scores are not high up the criteria that the admissions officers are looking at. GPA, letters of recommendation, extracurriculars all play a big part.

@MarieG10 Funding for students comes mainly from student loans, assistance from the school, and scholarships (as well as parents too). Assistance from schools mainly is for those who couldn’t normally pay the full tuition, but can often be negotiated to be slightly lower than advertised based on a students needs. Loans from the government need to be paid back and scholarships can be either merit or needs based.

@CowboyHat I would say they’re somewhat equivalent to A levels but not all kids who go to college take AP classes. Since they’re regulated by the college board (the people who do the SATs too) and not the school, some schools will limit AP classes or not offer them as they see them as a disadvantage, mainly private schools.

This is because see their own curriculum as either more rigorous or use it as a way to help students gain leverage in admissions. It doesn’t make a lot of sense but taking 3/3 AP classes at one school is seen to be more rigorous than taking 3/10 classes at another school. Even though it’s the same amount, the student at school 3/10 could have taken more so therefore they weren’t challenging themselves as much as student taking 3/3.

And yes, the first year at college in the US is typically a general year for students to figure out what they want to study, some colleges even offer exploratory majors for this purpose. Students aren’t expected to declare a major until their second year at most schools. Plenty of students also take courses they didn’t take in high school or didn’t do well in to get them ready for harder classes during their first year, while others can test out of these prerequisites or transfer AP credits if they did do well.

@MrsMorton Public colleges are essentially state colleges, funded by the state and federal government. These range from community colleges (2-year schools) to branch campuses to the main campus all within the same system. There’s typically quite a few of these per state m, say around 10-15 (excluding community colleges). They also cost less, around 20,000-25,000 per year including room, board, and tuition.
Private schools are independent of the government and are often the more prestigious schools (or schools with religious affiliations). The Ivy League schools fall into this category. Tuition is higher here, often 40,000+ including room, board, and tuition, but it’s often higher these days, more around 60,000+, sometimes 80,000 per year. It’s harder to get into typically and many can’t afford the tuition. There are still smaller private colleges, but these usually have religious affiliations.

Public schools can also be viewed as prestigious, but it’s more specific from one school to another, and they’re often the older schools.

@winterdaze Yes, thats my bad, you are defiantly right. A more accurate example would be University if Richmond I suppose. Or possible Georgetown but that’s more D.C.

And yes to everyone taking about funding, the US government does not offer grants the same way the UK does. Student loans have to be paid back. However, there has been lots of talk of student loan forgiveness recently.
Its also harder for international students to get aid besides scholarships. A big reason why so many private schools are happy to take international students is because they know they're going to pay (or much more likely to pay) the full tuition.

@penelopequiche There are many scholarships available, but less from the schools themselves and fewer “full-ride” scholarships.
Many scholarships students have to apply for use SAT or ACT scores, as well as grades and essays. The rewards for these can range from a couple hundreds to a few thousands. If you apply for a lot of these you can end up with a lot of your tuition paid for! There is also merit, based on grades only, and needs-based which is for poor students who couldn’t normally afford to pay for school.

There has been a significant increase in the number of students from elite schools in the UK applying to universities in the US in recent years.

In London, this trend is particularly noticeable. Wealthy parents are increasingly pushing their offspring towards high-ranking US universities. I suspect they see the writing on the wall and that many of the high-paying positions in investment banking and law are moving from London to New York and elsewhere:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/london-s-calling-falls-on-deaf-ears-for-firms-looking-to-list-3v2s3p3qt

Yes, thats my bad, you are defiantly right. A more accurate example would be University if Richmond I suppose. Or possible Georgetown but that’s more D.C.

Also Washington and Lee.