I’m an American AMA about US universities

[Dilemoth]

I know US universities/colleges have become more popular and would like to help if possible.

Context: Have children in high school in the southeast part of the US applying to college soon.

@WhartyFif

American universities tend to have endowments of millions or even billions of $$$$$.

By contrast, UK universities frankly do not. Only Oxford and Cambridge have anything similar, but their funds are on a much smaller scale. There are small universities in rural states that have bigger endowments than Oxbridge.

US universities seek and receive huge amounts in donations from alumni and have full-time finance and investment staff (or contract this out) putting all that money to work. For the most part, they tend to beat the market.

That’s not what I said at all. My comment related to the academic rigour of American high schools, not the intelligence of a population.

The broadly accepted position seems to be that a US degree take 4 years compared to the equivalent taking 3 years in the UK, and that’s because they finish high school roughly a year behind their UK counterparts. Similarly, a masters degree takes 6 years in the US and 4 years in the UK but the qualification at the end of that period is equivalent.

To get to the same standard as a UK student after studying A Levels, and American student has to chose a lot of extras at high school because the basic level of education is lower.

@Dilemoth my nephews are American and I struggle to understand how higher education differs there, can you help?

Tax - if you are registered to pay tax in certain states, you can get higher education fee discounts, is that true? So Florida could be cheaper to study in as its a low tax state? What about other states like Virginia, DC, New York, California etc?

Public / Private - is a degree from a public school 'worse'?

Scholarships - what kind of scholarships are available? Eg if you are involved in music and/or sports clubs outside of school, can you get a scholarship in these areas? What is involved? Eg if its just something you do for fun at the moment, do you have to get really into it at university to get and keep the scholarship?

The comment from @CowboyHat about AL standard was true at one time when fewer British progressed to university. In my field it has been debatable for a while.

But Americans definitely have the extra year of uni, and it is broadly accepted that the two systems now lead to comparable degrees.

How then can a two year Masters programme in one country be equivalent to a one year programme in the other? (@CowboyHat later on) have taught in both: this is a myth. The intensity is comparable. In my field more British programmes than American ones involve a three month Master’s thesis and this accomplishment is rightly recognised (it is basically an extended term paper) but the knowledge base acquired in two academic years of taking courses is about twice as great, as one would expect.

BTW I have no problem this. People recognise that each serves a purpose.

Thank you mathanxiety that’s really helpful.
i guess that underscores as well how significant (and potentially devastating for the long term health and sustainability of UK universities) it is that the UK government have over decades withdrawn government funding from UK universities and told them to act more like businesses.

UK Governments are looking for UK universities to emulate the US model. However UK politicians seem to have conveniently ignored the fact that the US universities’ finance model already involves the proportion of massive endowments to the institution that you mention.

If the UK universities’ don’t have that cushion of historical investment and their coffers are in reality dwarfed by the relative wealth of US universities plus they are suddenly expected to attract proportionally much greater capital donations than the US equivalent have to attract…. now I understand why there is such a pressure on universities in the UK to be recruiting (maximum fee paying) international students.

I do wonder about the relative likelihood of success for UK universities of attracting massive alumni donations from domestic or international students who have studied in the UK?

To think about the prospects of that we’re getting into taxation and national economy questions around multiples of countries and the alums’ attitudes to personal charitable giving vs UK government responsibility that seem very hard to predict. Prospects don’t look very reliable to say the least.

Similarly, a masters degree takes 6 years in the US and 4 years in the UK but the qualification at the end of that period is equivalent.

I assume you mean three years UG plus one for Masters against four years UG plus two for Masters.

The difference is general education vs specialism.

Looking at economics, “top” universities in the UK get away with three years because our sixth form is so specialised that almost all their students will start with double maths and economics. That specialisation continues through UG, in that even external options tend to be within the same area. You do not see drama majors suddenly taking calculus, whereas US undergraduates will have STEM, language and English requirements. (Interestingly LSEs relatively new PPE degree, which promises rigour in all three disciplines, is four years.)

After his three year degree DS took a pretty brutal 10 months Masters (EME at the LSE). It was only possible to be accepted because his first degree had so much maths. The Oxford Masters, which does not require as much maths on entry, is a two year course.

In truth the UK is out of step with most other countries. DS is taking a PhD at one of the US Universities mentioned above. He was the second youngest out of a cohort of 30. (The girl who pipped him to the title by a month or so is a very exceptional mathematician who had skipped years at both school and University in her home country.) His technical skills were ahead of most. However….he stopped studying English, MFL and science at 16 which others find extraordinary, and as a result his essay writing skills need some work. Technocrat or broader thinker?

(The stats are also a little confused. In the US many economics PhD programmes are six years including a taught Masters, but Europeans often need a Masters to be considered. Very strong US students are able to take Masters level courses in their final UG years so can demonstrate their competence that way.)

The Fulbright Commission is a good place to start for information about studying in the US

www.fulbright.org.uk/

As a side observation, the numbers of students majoring in humanities in the US appears to be in free fall. (I was hoping I could work out a sharelink to a New Yorker article of a couple of weeks ago but don’t seem to be able to.)

College is expensive so you maximise your earnings potential. So business or STEM not English. It is only the upper middle classes who can be confident that their history degree plus their existing social capital will land them a good job.

if a U.S university applicant (from uk) has SEN, and/or disability do US universities support them well? Are there accommodations made at entrance or in terms of available student financial aid?

It's hard to know what our government's end game is with regards our University funding. They've withdrawn it and expect Universities to act as businesses whilst they must know our universities don't have historical endowment funds.

And now, when Universities have become so big and impersonal, I can't see how they can hope to get more donations from alumni, from home or international students.

OP - my perception of American Universities - from American friends - is that there is a higher level of parental engagement from the institutions. They foster a community. They identify with the college their child will be going to long before they go from getting their acceptance direct from the college months before they start, to merchandise available for parents, moving in day a big family affair, parent pages on their website, newsletters and emails for parents. Plus they already have a culture of donating that the UK doesn't have.

At UK Universities and even secondary schools parents are kept at a distance. None of the communication comes via me. I couldn't be 100% certain what University my dd would be going to until results day, 4 or 5 weeks before her start date, so I had to imagine her in both her firm choice and her insurance choice. Once they begin, it is sink or swim for our students in these huge institutions, with many living not on or near campus. For us, it's 3 years, a means to an end. Whilst we are all happy with the University, we don't feel an affiliation with the institution and wouldn't donate money.

As an American (and Brit) who was educated in the US but have worked for a large Uni in the UK (I live in the UK) I’m reading a lot of false info and/or prejudices being shared here.
Big 10 schools are an amazing place to start. The real America. Big schools with super research programmes, which are affordable in comparison to the big east coast or west coast names. From there you can move on to fully funded two-year MA programmes. And 6-7 year Ph.D programmes including programmes at Ivy League schools. These can lead on to receiving prestigious awards and grants. Once you get to the top these programmes are chuck full of people from the UK and elsewhere. Interestingly, the number of Americans chosen for those programmes pales in comparison to the international students chosen. Take it from someone who has lived this path and know many academics who have done so too.

The Big Ten universities are the Universities of Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Nebraska, and Wisconsin, along with Michigan State, Northwestern, Ohio State, Penn State, Purdue, and Rutgers.

@findmeonthesunnyside I agree - I have a kid at one of them and it has been a great experience. As well as being about to get a degree in Computer Science and a minor in Spanish, she's also done a huge amount of music and theatre, worked as a Teaching Assistant, provided tutoring, run office hours, and marked papers. The teaching has stretched her academically almost to the limit, which she loves.

She's visited Europe twice - once fully funded by the university. She speaks near fluent Spanish.

When she had mental health issues the college immediately found psychological and psychiatric treatment for her, as well as putting support mechanisms into place.

She lives in a sorority house but it is nothing like you'd imagine - it's just a bunch of kids with similar interests, and is very welcoming to all. Because it focuses on music it has all sorts of instruments, it has its own choir and they perform recitals.

She's made friends with students from many walks of life, who are studying a variety of subjects (her best friends are studying Journalism, Computer Engineering, Pyschology, Economics, Theater and Opera). They range from students getting no aid at all to students on full rides.

She gets a significant amount of need-based aid even though we are on a very comfy income.

I went to university in the UK and it was fun, but I had nothing like the opportunities she's had, and the types of people I met were much more of a homogenous class.

Nearly every year since I graduated I've had a letter from my US uni asking for donations. I don't even live in my childhood home, they have tracked me down to my new address in northern England. That's some dedication!

Yep! DH gets them no matter where we move to. They're like the IRS, you cannot escape them.

Still, a large part of DD's need-based aid comes from a donation made by a very rich alum. I'm not complaining... :-)

My Scottish university manages to follow me around the US as well. (I'm American) I don't mind donating, though. Studying and living there was a transformative experience.

Speaking of Scotland, most of the contrasts drawn on these pages between university in the US versus UK refer to English systems. Broadly speaking, for historical reasons, there are more similarities between the Scottish and American educational systems, including university, that make transitioning from one to the other easier than with the English systems.

Not only does my son's university (graduated in 2018) routinely send me chatty emails requesting donations, they've even sent me some helpful info on how I can leave them money in my will😀

Pure class. 😂

There needs to be very clear distinctions made by posters as to whether they or DC are British, or American. If DC hold usa passports, their choices are huge. This distinction makes a huge difference at undergrad level. Not much after that! We met students and parents looking around William and Mary and they confirmed, as Virginia state residents, what a big reduction in fees they enjoyed. Brits don’t qualify.

The Fulbright Commission always was up front about the fact it’s easier to get to the USA for post grad. There are still only a handful of universities who are generous to everyone regardless of parental income at undergrad.,When I attended a Fulbright seminar this was made clear. Even a reduction from $80,000 to $30,000 is a lot for uk parents to find. No student loan either. It’s money up front plus living and travel costs. So you are looking at around £45,000-50,000 a year. That might be good value but in many cases is not. Where does the money come from? Higher earners often have high mortgages too and no spare £50,000 every year. Overall it suits the very rich or the very clever.

@findmeonthesunnyside I have received my PhD at one of America’s leading state unis and taught for some time at another. One of these is Big 10. The aid both offered to international students on tuition fees was reserved for athletes and other special cases. (The out of state tuition in both cases is now about $50,000 pa.). What kind of tuition assistance are you referring to that the Big 10 offers international UGs?

I agree with you completely that America (or the Continent) is much better for PG training at the moment. The support package in the UK is not long enough. Doctoral students in other countries are more readily supported for longer periods. It makes them more competitive on the job market. Just take a look at the international quality of the younger STEM and Economics lecturers in any Russell Group institution to see what I mean. (Of course plenty are British, more since the EU ones are going home since Brexit. But not nearly as many as parents might think from attending Open Days)

Sorry, @findmeonthesunnyside you didn’t quite say that assistance for international students is offered by the Big 10. My experience as I said above is that it is not, at the UG level. We agree PG support from top American unis is excellent.

Honestly, as a Brit living in the US with a DD currently applying for college, I’d advise anyone to get their undergraduate degree in the UK. It’s been a miserable experience-she’s been admitted to some prestigious colleges and awarded scholarships, but we’re still stuck with a massive bill, because they look at your income, your savings, your retirement savings, etc. I recently had a meeting with a Financial Aid advisor at one college and she said that worst case, we could always put it on a credit card. WTF?!

Currently we have everything in a spreadsheet trying to work out the best option and we’re looking for additional scholarships for her to apply for. It’s so different to my experience in the UK where I was offered places and could just choose the best fit for me.

And she’s doing a STEM subject where women are underrepresented, so that helped with scholarships-but it’s still not enough!

@poetryandwine At no point did I mention there was funding at the undergraduate level at Big Ten schools for international students (unless you’re a savant or a highly desired musician or athlete). What I did say was that they are excellent institutions for a very good price. A great way to get your foot in. Serious students quickly get noticed and scooped up by academic staff and are offered pay for all sorts, which pays for living costs. After a completed Bachelor’s, international students can and do get full rides, including ones at Ivy League schools (on average these cost over a $1 million for a 6-7 year MA/PhD programme). You can’t pay to get into these Ivy League schools at that level, even if you wanted, like you can at state universities). They tend to accept 4-5 students per programme a year. They seriously train and polish you. You’re publishing before you graduate.
That being said, it’d be best for Brits to get a cheap and fast 3 year undergraduate degree in the UK and then hop over the pond on a full ride. More and more Americans are getting undergraduate degrees here, in the UK, bc it’s cheap in comparison and it’s only for 3 years. They do struggle against their peers to start (less so in Ireland and Scotland) but that’s bc they are behind the game and haven’t started specialising in subjects yet, whilst their UK peers have. But they know what going in and adapt.