Help - DS is studying 2 MFL A-levels but warned off!

[Towinthewater]

On half term hols in USA and my Y12 DS is panicking about email from (newly appointed) SLT member at his school earlier today.

DS is studying French, Spanish and Film Studies at A level. He intends to apply to RG unis for Modern Languages via UCAS in Sept. Predicted ABB.

New member of SLT has sent an email to top set Y11 (the year below DS - but his friend shared it with him) advising that pupils shld think twice about French or Spanish at A-level as all the A stars go to native speakers (who take the A level as an easy option).

is this new member of SLT correct? Advice for my ambitious DS who loves MFL but might not have taken them if he’d known he has little chance of getting A star thanks to native speakers! I emphasise that two of his three A-levels are MFL (both French and Spanish) so he is doubly f**ked

Those are great A levels.

Wonder what A levels the SLT man has.

It's fine to advise, but slso fine to ignore.

Likelihood in film A level is they will do a Spanish language film , and in Spanish and French they will study a film so they complement each other.

Wonder if the MFL department know about this?

My very very lazy DS got an A star in GCSE Spanish and a C in A level. If he had worked harder he would have done far better.

The problem with a two tier system is defining a native speaker. Somebody with a grandparent who is a native speaker, who lives with the family? Or a grandparent they see two weeks a year? Somebody with a parent who is a native speaker who is largely an absent parent, or maybe somebody they see one day a week? And I know it's not applicable for most UK schools, but what about languages like Lithuanian, Latvian and Finnish, which aren't the same language but have enough similarities that a native speaker of one is at a considerable advantage to a native English speaker?

From personal experience, this also happens frequently at degree level (several friends are bilingual and studied their languages at University). It felt slightly "unfair" but that is the reality and it was great to learn from native speakers.

If your DS wants to study MFL I wouldn't be put off by what the school is saying - for other students who need higher scores for another degree subject then this is probably more relevant.

My DC2 did French and Spanish A Levels in 2022 (and English Lit so three langauges) and applied for French and Italian at Uni (deferred entry). They got great offers and is off to Oxford in October. As PP said Durham and Oxford don't require A star they are AAA. Interestingly they gave up waiting for Edinburgh - hadn't heard in May and wanted to firm but their friend also applying for French and Italian did wait another week or so and Edinburgh's offer was A star AA. And her friend was a contextual applicant. DC2's Bristol offer was ABB (friend's contextual offer BBC) and DC's Newcastle offer was AAB.

As to getting A stars my DC did manage A star in both French and Italian. They key with MFL is accuracy and providing all the different language constructions and showing off your grammar. This is why native speakers often don't get A stars as they are too natural and not precise enough.

My DC1 also did French - he was told in Year 11 he was unlikely to get an A star do to his lack of attention to detail and the teacher was correct although he is comfortable speaking French. The grade boundary is high ~88% for MFLs but if you don't need an A star then that is not an issue.

Me too!
I am now a conference interpreter. So happy to see a boy studying MFL. He should go for it!

This topic has been much discussed and written about so Universities are well aware. I haven't read all of the comments and I am sure the reiterate what I am about to say..

There were approx 8,000 students taking French last year, 20% of whom gained A, while it is very difficult to determine exactly who is a native speaker.. there are some estimates here... less than 10% - not all of whom, will get an A.

Looking at other subjects, there are many where around 10% of students get A. .. geography and business studies for example, so there are plenty of remaining As up for grabs.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/610050/Native_speakers_in_A_level_modern_foreign_languages.pdf

ah rubbish - I knew the *. would give me bold instead of what I wanted to write - sorry - hope it makes sense.

Absolute nonsense. When I did my A Levels I got one of the highest marks in the country for French. Not a native speaker, never holidayed in France, and started lessons aged 11. I was just good at French. Incredibly negative attitude from the SLT member. Incidentally a girl in my class was French and got a C as she couldn't navigate the expectations of the written papers well.

I hope your boy ignores the advice of the SLT member OP and continues on his path. Whether he is closer to delivering his predicted grades or aspiring higher, there is room and offers for MFL students, both native and non-native across all tier unis. It may just be the SLT person is trying to steer students away from what they deem are not dead cert A stars, or harder to obtain? Which no doubt MFLs are challenging vs some other subjects/grade boundaries.

DD is a non native speaker, but was studying amongst many native students due to her school's international mix, and quite a few of those have gone on to study languages as UGs this year. She got to practice and improve her dialect with them, and they got to up their game on grammar, essays, historical, political etc, including debating sessions which were always a great equaliser.

As a fresher this year (not in the UK), she has been securing a number of GCSE and A level spanish students as her PT work. A couple of months in, she thinks she gets shortlisted and hired by parents, apart from the prerequisite of top grades in GCSE/A levels, due to her non-native status. Clearly there is much more to MFLs than just speaking to achieve high grades, so that's what she focuses on in her students' plans to pass their exams as best as they can.

I had a friend do 3 a level languages and got A*s in all and she wasn't a native speaker. Yes it's hard but if this is what he wants to do then they shouldn't discourage pupils willing to put the effort in

The key with MFL is accuracy and providing all the different language constructions and showing off your grammar.

Well, that would certainly help, but my DC is also at Ox doing languages despite a notoriously sloppy approach to conjugations and adjective endings, and being seemingly impervious to most of the rest of the grammar (typical phone call home: 'Mu-uuum, what's a past conditional negative?' 'No idea, pet, I did chemistry...').

Good luck to your DC though, Juja -- having English Lit is likely to be a great benefit for a very literature-based course.

I did 2 MFL at A Level - I found that the skillset (in terms of grammar, writing about foreign literature) etc was similar for both, and so doing one backed up the other (I suppose like doing Maths and Physics A Level, maybe?) so if anything I'ld see your DS doing 2 MFL as a help rather than a hindrancce.

Very true, @DiamanteFan.

@FlyingSquid sorry - I perhaps should have said the key to getting high marks in A Level was attention to detail which DC1 didn't have while DC 2 does. A Level MFL marking in my two DC experience seemed quite a tick box - hopefully less so at Uni - as it accuracy in conjugating verbs does not necessarily that it makes you a better MFL student at Uni.

Yes DC2 said the English Lit was a huge help in the interview and hopefully they'll enjoy the course. Is your DC liking the Oxford course?

I think it's more likely they're struggling to recruit/timetable language teachers for next year, and so they're trying to put students off so they can say the A-level isn't viable.

Oxford used to say that English Lit is a useful A level to have. Not sure if they do now but it clearly still is!

Oxford also say they aim for colloquial language too. So native casual speakers are not remotely disadvantaged. Language is around 50% of the degree and Dc of MFL teachers, and people who are able to teach Dc more than a bit of chat, are clearly advantaged. They actively want Dc to spend vacations abroad in target language countries. So you need to know someone (grandparents etc) or cough up.

Thanks for all the posts. SLT clearly talking nonsense. However, I have an update. It is all kicking off on the parent What's App groups and some brave soul has made a MFL teacher at the school aware of the SLT member's comment so I expect fireworks behind the scenes! However, another parent has just pointed out that there are two pregnant MFL teachers who will shortly be going off on maternity leave and maybe the school can't recruit cover so are trying to put students off?

@Fairislefandango

"I bet the MFL dept at your school would be absolutely raging if they knew what this SLT member had said!"

Exactly - I bet the MFL dept will be put onto some kind of watch list if they don't recruit enough for the next cohort....and yet their very own SLT is briefing against them!

As an aside I wonder how many of us MFL teachers know each other on other forums.... 👋

Rubbish! I know of many native speakers who have done badly in GCSE / A level languages. They think it will be an easy option but unless they have studied in that language rather than just grew up speaking it to half their family, they often don't have a good knowledge of grammar, spelling etc or a wide range of specialist vocabulary. They have to work as hard as the non-native speakers to get the higher grades.

@Towinthewater

Blimey! Do keep us updated. Does your DS have staff for Yr13 do you know?

Wow, things must have changed since I did my language A-levels in the '90s. Definitely carry on with both of them! I did a language degree as well and have done very well out of it (although the world of translation is changing rapidly so I would nowadays recommend doing a language alongside e.g. a science, law, business etc., or a postgrad in these).

@middlenglander
You definitely don’t need to do one MFL and law. The grades for law and competition for places are much higher. Dd is a barrister with a MFL degree. You can convert to law. You cannot convert Law to MFL. Play to your strengths. Many MFL grads don’t use MFLs. It’s got great transferable skills if you go to an academic university.

@TizerorFizz Hence my wording 'or a postgrad in these'

my daughter gives lie to that stat.

I can only speak English, she has 3 A* A levels and EPQ in 2 languages (and English) and is in 3rd year at Oxbridge excelling.

Like many things in life it takes a lot of hard work, some talent and a little luck.

her top tip is to do vocab every day. it's the difference between getting by and doing well

Dh and I don’t speak another language. Of course MFL students can have a talent their parents don’t. We have friends whose DD was an amazing pianist. Neither plays an instrument. However you only need to look at a few DC musicians and you see parents honing their skills from a very early age. Any parents who teach their Dc from age 0 to be bilingual and offer them literature, grammar skills, oral skills and lengthy spells abroad do give Dc an advantage. According to posters these native speaker Dc can practically teach the others in school! So they must be ahead!