Help - DS is studying 2 MFL A-levels but warned off!

[Towinthewater]

On half term hols in USA and my Y12 DS is panicking about email from (newly appointed) SLT member at his school earlier today.

DS is studying French, Spanish and Film Studies at A level. He intends to apply to RG unis for Modern Languages via UCAS in Sept. Predicted ABB.

New member of SLT has sent an email to top set Y11 (the year below DS - but his friend shared it with him) advising that pupils shld think twice about French or Spanish at A-level as all the A stars go to native speakers (who take the A level as an easy option).

is this new member of SLT correct? Advice for my ambitious DS who loves MFL but might not have taken them if he’d known he has little chance of getting A star thanks to native speakers! I emphasise that two of his three A-levels are MFL (both French and Spanish) so he is doubly f**ked

It is an issue, but your son plans to apply for a MFL degree.

1. there is no other path there.

2. the language departments at universities know about this.

3. French and Spanish aren't the language A-levels most affected. These are the two most popular language A-levels in the country and the cohort is mostly non-native British children taking them as second languages. It would be more or a problem if he'd decided he wanted to study Urdu or Mandarin Chinese.

4. I've seen non-native speakers get A-stars while taking double or even triple MFL A-levels.

The difficulty of getting A-stars in language A-levels is an issue for A-level students who do not wish to pursue languages at degree level. That is, they want to apply for other degrees where the lecturers don't know how to contextualise MFL grades. This is not your son.

@NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision this is so reassuring and u clearly have insight. Thank u

Just had a quick squint at the Summer 2022 A-level results spreadsheet, and it seems a fifth of candidates got an A-star for Spanish and for French. In my experience, that does partially reflect that only people who really like languages sit A-levels in them, but that is obviously him, as it's February of year 12 and he's still enrolled.

If he likes languages, tell him to study them. They're fun! Simply don't laze about with grammar and get to grips with conjugations early.

Your point 2 - language departments “know about this”. Hope so but on what basis do u assert this? Thx again & I hope you’re right 👍

I did French and Spanish at A Level and got top marks. Not a native speaker, although this was before intro of A* grade. He should follow his passion and do subjects he wants to do

@NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision he loves French and Spanish. But the email from new SLT struck a chord - in his (state school) Spanish A-level class of 11, 6 are native speakers. In his French A-level of 9, 4 are

They know the same way your SLT member knows, and in more detail. The way the shrinking cohorts have affected grade boundaries has been a problem discussed in the A-level examiners' reports for years. I myself took German. Cohort was a third of the size of French, and I had to get ten points higher on the German exams than I did on the French ones, to get the same grade!

Language lecturers know in detail how the number of applicants for MFL degrees has fallen, because schools and colleges don't offer the A-levels any more, because of the exact problem your SLT member describes. It's a vicious circle. University language departments have been dropping their entrance requirements in response, or closing entirely. Tell him to check what grades he needs to get for the universities he's interested in, for their language degrees.

This kind of advice makes me cross. I have many years experience of teaching A Level MFL and it is rarely native speakers who get A*. An A Level in a language requires excellent analytical skills, the ability to translate accurately and write good English as well as defend a point of view in a speaking exam.

Also there are many types of 'native speaker.' Most students who have a family heritage in the language have not received the bulk of their education in this language. They don't necessarily have an extensive and academic vocabulary in the language. So admittedly it can be an easier option for them than say, Maths, would be but in order to get the top grades they have to work as hard as anyone.

In addition, universities and employers know that MFL A Levels are very rigorous and students who do well in them have excellent academic and transferable skills. A language degree is a fantastic course than can lead to all kinds of future careers and is an excellent choice for an ambitious young person. SLT should NOT be putting keen students off A level languages - it is both ignorant and also highly damaging to the promotion of languages which are already suffering.

Good luck to your DS in his A Levels. He could try to apply for a summer school in MFL at a university which might give him some confidence and a boost in grades. Also a trip to France / Spain if it is at all possible would help.

Rubbish. I know plenty of non native speakers with an A* in French and Spanish A-levels. In fact Unis that interview as part of the admissions process (e.g. Oxbridge) often prefer non native speakers for MFL/MML degrees.

Great, he'll have plenty of practice for the speaking exams, which are the actually hard bits, without even having to go to France or Spain!

Realistically, if those students weren't there to boost the class size, I wonder if your son would even have the chance to do double MFL for A-level. None of my local secondaries even offer both at GCSE any more. There is the GCSE French secondary, and the secondary that offers GCSE Spanish. And as for German, you can whistle.

I don't know whether your son will get A-stars. That is a matter of hard work, natural talent, exam technique, and getting 8 hours of sleep the night before. But I can promise you that university language departments do know the value of an A in any A-level MFL and exactly what level of language proficiency it represents. They don't think it's worthless!

Sounds to me like there is a need for a two-tier system when it comes to language learning. A-levels should be aimed at non-native speakers and should be no harder to get an A in than other subjects, and native speakers, frankly, should be looking at other and harder qualifications, OR should be doing the A-level at an earlier age. If you have grown up speaking a language, I think you should have your sights set on a higher level than "taking an A-level in it at the standard age." (I am the mother of a bilingual child, for what it's worth).

To get to the point, SLT is talking bollocks.

MFL teacher here and A-Level specialist and in fact in my experience from over the years the "native speakers" don't actually get the top marks at all.

Often whilst they might be appear to be practically fluent in speaking, they tend to struggle with the complexities of writing, especially in French where there are many more homophones and silent letters and make many more grammatical errors thus brining their grade down.

Also "native speakers" tend to not use as much complex linguistic structures in their speaking or writing as they tend to be far more accustomed to functioning on less flowery language, which also affects their progress unless they make a very concerted effort to include this, which is tricky.

Ignore the "advice" as clearly it's coming from someone who knows bugger all about language teaching. It's an obscure things for SLT to be saying to prospective students, like they want to actively put them off or something. Does MFL clash with that SLT member's subject option, perhaps and they feel threatened by it? Perhaps it's worth calling them out on this and asking for the evidence on which the claim is made?

I wonder too whether the MFL dept is aware of the claims that SLT is making and how they are actively trying to negatively impact on take up in the sixth form....

Your DS is doing a brilliant job with two languages and should definitely continue. I'd love to have students of this calibre and enthusiasm in my classes.

Unis will love it when it comes to UCAS forms and offers in the autumn.

Can you email SLT copying in the MFL dept and also governors and ask them in all seriousness whether they'd give the same advice to students wishing to study more than one science subject at A-Level??

Lecturer at Russell Group university here, though not in MFL. Given falling numbers of applications, I’d be very surprised if any universities outside Oxbridge made A* offers.
And I agree with others that this is appalling advice from the SLT member. Please do make others aware.

I did double MFL A Levels, albeit over 20 years ago, then a French degree at a top university. The native speakers did not do better than the non-native speakers - same at degree level actually, because only a small part of the course is purely language-based.
I can’t get over SLT behaving in that way - well actually I can sadly, as an ex-MFL teacher! Post-Brexit Britain, who needs Languages anyway?!

What an unhelpful and pointless email from slt. Loads of non-native speakers get A stars. I would guess that most kids doing French A Level are not native speakers. Both my nephew and niece have got A stars in French, German and Spanish in the last three years. Not native speakers. Ignore it.

Apologies if I'm missing the point, but I thought your son was predicted ABB - so what does it matter if a native speaker gets an A*?

Yes I was also wondering that!
As ii happens I teach MFL but would recommend only taking one language at A level and do that and another ab initio at uni.

Both DDs got A stars in MFL (French and Spanish and French and German) as I’m sure did most of their non-native
Oxbridge cohorts - they both studied MFLs at university. I got As in my own MFLs 30 years ago.

So pl ignore SLT - poor advice.

in his (state school) Spanish A-level class of 11, 6 are native speakers. In his French A-level of 9, 4 are

Assuming that this year group isn't a complete anomaly and the current year 11 has no native French or Spanish speakers in it at all, nor can the school envisage any being amongst external applicants, has this email been sent to all of year 11, including the native French and Spanish speakers? Or just to the rest? Is the school trying to up its A level grades for league table purposes and so the new person has been tasked with trying to put off those where achieving A* or even A may be more difficult due to factors other than those intrinsic to the candidate?

Double languages A Level here too. I found it rough as I had to work harder than other subjects.

I would have loved native speakers in my class... imagine the conversation practise!

It is hard work to do two languages, it really is. But the top grades came from genuine passion and hard work in my experience of both mine, and other year groups.

To an extent that is true for the conversation and vocab but they may not be as good at analysing text or cultural topics. If they enjoy mfl do it!

He's surrounded by native speakers in his classes? Excellent. Far better than classes where they've never met one over 7 years of teaching.

@Towinthewater
Oxford ask for AAA. Durham too. You don’t need A star anywhere - I think! So really no need to panic. School is probably right but A star awards have risen by a huge amount. Much lower when DD did MFLs. The school shouldn’t put students off though. Three sciences are ok. The school is just looking at results. However two MFLs is very advantageous for degree application. If he likes them, carry on!

Few universities ask for AAA. Most will be AAB or ABB. So he’s got a huge choice. DD went to Bristol (AA in her MFLs) and is now a barrister. So no DC has any disadvantage regarding career. Go to the most academic university you can and aim high.

I can say though that native speakers are everywhere. MFL runs in families! Parents are French or Spanish. Or have relatives who are. I’ve seen plenty with British names but they are native speakers and teach their children. Universities have no idea of the heritage of many of them! They might even be teachers who know about translation, reading and writing and extending knowledge of the culture. Of course their Dc have an advantage. They don’t just chat at dinner. They intend their Dc to study MFL! And they do. He has a high level of native speakers. It might elevate the group but it can be dispiriting. You never feel good enough! Keep going. ABB is ok. AAB is even better. Just remember - no A star needed!

Bullshit. I'm an MFL teacher, did 3 languages at A Level (2 MFL and Latin) and have a y13 dd doing Spanish A Level and going to university to do Spanish and Linguistics. She wishes she'd done two languages. She regularly gets marks as high as the native speaker in her class and sometimes higher.

Languages are hard at A Level. The jump is really big from GCSE, but that doesn't mean only native speakers get the top grades. Having lots of native speakers in the class can be a real asset, as long as the non-native speakers aren't intimidated by their fluency and are happy to just go for it and talk lots!

I bet the MFL dept at your school would be absolutely raging if they knew what this SLT member had said!