How do we find out about studying in Europe?

[igivein]

DS is in year 12 and hoping to study physics / Astro physics at uni (assuming he gets his finger out and gets decent grades …).
He’s starting to realise the insane amount of debt he’s likely to graduate with.
We were chatting this morning about how you can study undergrad courses abroad that are taught in English but the fees are much lower. Does anyone have any experience / knowledge of this, or can point me in the right direction to explore further?
I appreciate it’s probably not as easy now - thanks brexit!

Sorry...

Pay upfront his UK uni costs?

He’s not exactly dynamic and proactive … if there was a career where he could spend all day playing strategy games on the computer he’d ace it!

Honestly, he would be a lot better off in a university in the UK. An advantage of paying higher fees is that there is a lot less incentive for the university to fail the student as the university do not want to lose the fees.

The minimum marks required to pass are higher in NL and he would need to be proactive and hard-working to stay the course.

I may be wrong but I think lessons at Science Po in Paris are also in English.

Just checked - Sciences Po Paris run half their courses in English at undergrad and graduate level

If it’s the debt that’s putting him off look at degree apprenticeships.
You need very good A levels are they are often in STEM but they may be of interest

@igivein my friend's DC did a similar 4 year degree and most of the students on the course are planning to go into consulting or investment banking .

Studying abroad is fantastic and I did it for 1 year (Erasmus, pre brexit) but wish I could have explored doing it further, for ug or pg. it’s a wonderful way to broaden horizons and meet different people And have lifelong international friends.

many universities abroad will offer scholarships and grants to learners from uk due to the lack of eu funding now available. It isn’t always readily available in English on websites so is worth an enquiry.

I reccommend he researches uk university courses - if he finds one he likes the sound of, email the university and ask about partner institutions in eu or beyond. Many unviersities in uk have partnerships with others and they align curriculum or allow student swaps.

or search universities with physics (or whichever subject he fancies) in Europe. A quick google shows you which are the top universities in Europe for this course. Then make enquiries with grants and funding available.

i really reccommend international study. Financially it depends on many factors, but the lifelong lessons you learn are priceless.

KPMG and other consulting firms offer Level 7 apprenticeships in management consulting, with a choice between finance and tech focus. If he likes strategy games and physics, maybe he likes consulting in tech?

One option is to look at Scottish Universities. The obvious drawback is that they are four year courses, but they allow for a broader base and thus more time to choose.

Or any Universities that offer the equivalent of Cambridge’s NatSci, where specialisation starts in the second year.

He might also look at the range of courses a STEM specialist university like Imperial offers, and see if there is anything that appeals. (They offer one in computer game design, though then Dundee would also be worth a look, albeit with warnings that it is a tough insecure industry.) He can then look at which Universities offer the same courses. One positive about engineering is that there are so many specialist areas. Marine, auto, robotics. DD studied bio-medical which is a field that is evolving fast, with the imaging side requiring a good understanding of physics.

In terms of not taking loans, plenty don’t. Assuming the money can be found to pay as you go, previous discussions on this board seem to split roughly between Londoners who take the attitude that when you are working you will need every last penny to have a decent standard of living so really don’t want to be burdened with an additional tax, and those elsewhere who suggest taking the loan, saving the money and using it as a deposit on a first home. There is also a split by subject. STEM graduates tend to have higher earnings so are more likely to repay loans in full so given interest rates it is often worth paying up front. Fashion graduates, say, will probably never repay the tax payer. Another angle is tax. In our case granny paid which was efficient from an IHT perspective, though balanced by the fact I had to give up work to care for her. Our observation since then is that living costs then vary a lot between students of similar economic backgrounds. Ability to cook, and avoiding take out coffees, deliveroo and Uber can make a huge difference.

Other posters have given you various pros & cons (so apols if I repeat some of them).

Mainland EU universities don't operate in the same way as UK ones. Very little emphasis on the 'student experience' and most students live at home, or commute, or flat-share with friends. This may make it very difficult for someone who doesn't speak the language or without close connections to a country or an area.

No student loan for tuition fees or maintenance.

Often very big classes, and very little personal attention - teaching through lecture only - certainly that's the 1st hand experience of family members in the larger better known French, German & Italian universities. It generally takes a lot longer to complete a degree in these countries, and degrees are usually a minimum of 4 years.

So they may teach in English in the Nederlands, but everyday life is conducted in Dutch.

HE in the UK (against all the current odds of governments trying to destroy us as they are destroying State schools) is world-leading. Your DS can choose the best Physics degree, rather than the one taught in English in another country. The fees are quite low in international terms, and don't cover the actual cost.

Is your DS thinking of staying in Ireland or the Nederlands? He'll make friends & develop networks in these countries - will such networks help if he decides to return to the UK? Or is he interested and committed to spending a good part of his career outside the UK?

A degree isn't just a commodity which is interchangeable in country or language.

And I suspect it's a false economy to look just at the debt of the loans. Think of the debt instead as enabling an investment, and the best investment anyone can make in themselves & their long future life.

He’s not exactly dynamic and proactive

Really really really not a good idea then to study in another country simply to avoid paying English HE fees. You're paying for his education already so why is it such an issue?

some people seem to get out of the student debt by moving overseas
I know someone who had it all written off as Uk Gov couldn’t track them to recover it. Appalling really. Guess government don’t care about a few who get away

If he likes physics it's an excellent choice if he is predicted to get the grades.

Physics graduates from top universities are highly sought after in lots of industries. Plenty end up working in finance, IT and in very lucrative roles and earn ££££. Lots stay in research and earn much less too, of course.

The housing situation in The Netherlands is so dire that they are calling for a crackdown on international students.

www.dutchnews.nl/news/2022/12/minister-calls-on-universities-to-stop-recruiting-students-abroad/

He’s not exactly dynamic and proactive

Sciences Po will not be an option, or any of the grandes écoles, in this case. Generally, they offer courses in English to improve the English-language skills of the French students, rather than to enable access by native English speakers.

I would expect big changes in the Netherlands in this respect, very soon. They are swamped by non-Dutch English-speaking students looking for cheap uni courses now.

The UK still leads the field in terms of status, up there with the big US universities. If we were in the UK, that's where I'd want both my DS to go.

We are on the other side of the Brexit shitstorm: UK nationals living in the EU. We don't fit tidily into any box now. When we moved here, EU students could go to uni in Scotland (where DH and I are from) as per locals i.e. no fees. That's all changed, and now we aren't even sure if they would qualify for home fees - they might even be classed as international students - despite being British 🙄. It's a pile of shite.

That's all changed, and now we aren't even sure if they would qualify for home fees - they might even be classed as international students - despite being British 🙄. It's a pile of shite.

If your dcs expect to start uni in the UK before 2028/9 they will be assessed as Home students. After that - yes international unfortunately.

DS1 might squeak in, but DS2 won’t. We’re actually thinking about moving back to Scotland now, to position them for uni in a few years ☹️. There are other factors but this is a big one (sorry for the derail OP).

Ah sorry. Brexit truly is shit isn't it

Brexit is a shitstorm. I got EU nationality for myself and dd and discouraged her going back to UK to Uni though she would have still qualified for home fees. She wants to teach, eventually, and I think she is much better served having an EU qualification and the continued emphasis on learning other foreign languages (as part of the course) and the opportunities for Erasmus. And not starting life with a huge amount of debt. Her course is very tough though - they don't get long holidays throughout the year, and her estimation is that half the current year will drop out.

@Chocchops72
I read the Sciences Po idea and I thought not a chance!

You can learn a language on a uk stem course and go to a grand Ecole though. For a year if the course has a year abroad element, a link with the relevant grand Ecole and your French language is good enough.

Don't they need to take a language test? My DS was in Germany as a PG as well as year abroad and had to take a language proficiency test. Total hearsay but I heard of someone not graduating because they never got the language certificate. Thought the same from a neighbour at Sciences Po, although the course was partly in English.

Dd is doing a year abroad in Germany. Accommodation is the big issue. She couldn't find anything to start with, so spent the first month in a long stay airbnb. Once there it was easier to get a place from a "dropout", but a very tense, expensive few weeks to start.

Same here re accommodation. No help from home uni or there.

Her course is very tough though - they don't get long holidays throughout the year, and her estimation is that half the current year will drop out.

My family members' experiences of university in both Germany & France - in both humanities and STEM degrees - is that for most university degrees, the admissions process is pretty open (except for Medicine) but while universities will allow anyone with the minimum Abi or Bacc results required, they are pretty ruthless in weeding out the under-performers in semester-end exams. And forget about the Long Vacation/long summer. Semesters are up to 14 weeks long, followed by several weeks of exams. One of my young relatives is doing one of the top STEM courses in Germany, and manages a 3 week vacation in August, but seems hard at it otherwise. The pay off is that they'll be able to get a job anywhere in the world with this particular degree.