How do we find out about studying in Europe?

[igivein]

DS is in year 12 and hoping to study physics / Astro physics at uni (assuming he gets his finger out and gets decent grades …).
He’s starting to realise the insane amount of debt he’s likely to graduate with.
We were chatting this morning about how you can study undergrad courses abroad that are taught in English but the fees are much lower. Does anyone have any experience / knowledge of this, or can point me in the right direction to explore further?
I appreciate it’s probably not as easy now - thanks brexit!

The two main countries with lots of courses taught in English are Ireland (obviously) and the Netherlands. For Ireland, search for cao.ie for courses, but be aware that requirements are high. If resident in the UK though you are afforded the same rights as Irish students in Ireland under the CTA.
For the Netherlands, look for studyinholland.nl where you can search for courses. Costs much lower even though you pay international fees now, and requirements are lower, but be aware that living costs can be high (especially in amsterdam) and obviously he'll get no loan at all, so you'll have to help out in a big way!
Germany is tuition free fee, but there are very courses in English and requirements are extremely strict in terms of which A Levels you do; if he isn't doing a language, maths, physics and a humanities to at least AS, he isn't qualified to apply.

Thanks @Justcannot that’s really useful. I’ll get him to take a look at those sites.
We’d been thinking Netherlands and Ireland - looks like Germany’s a non-starter.

As far as I know University fees in Ireland are approx €3500 per year, (for undergrad) plus living costs. (there is help for lower income students but I don't know much about that)

I would caution that Ireland currently has a severe housing and cost if living crises. So while the fees and low the cost to support him will be very high much more than UK.

Thanks @Marblessolveeverything and @Booksbythebed worth exploring, but if the high living costs cancel out the low fees we’re no further forward.

Given the subject choices this may not apply.

But I am aware in certain sectors UK qualifications may not travel as easily
if they don't keep up with EU directives e.g. environmental engineering, Fgas etc. So I hope the secondary schools are advising the students accordingly.

I have aware of a few sectors already slow down recognition of UK qualifications and requiring people to retrain on expensive courses.

Is your DS pretty self-sufficient and not the kind of student to need support in terms of mental health or other things? It's much more "sink or swim" in European universities and there isn't the range of support services that UK universities have. So many British students seem to require this support now that it's worth bearing this in mind.

I'm not sure that the fees (as an international student) in the Netherlands are in fact in lower than home fees in the UK. The non-EU fee for this course, for example, is 15,000 euros: www.rug.nl/bachelors/physics/#!tuitionfee

Thanks @GCAcademic and @Marblessolveeverything .
He’s quite laid back and doesn’t get stressed easily, I think he’d be ok from that point of view, but the more I look into it, the less doable it seems.

Can you explain to him that is isn’t debt, it is a graduate tax. Point him in the direction of Martin Lewis on student debt and he might realise he might as well study in the UK.

@igivein
Its better to take out the loan here and go to a first class university. He won’t get a loan for overseas study (I believe) and so you will pay up front. Do you want this? As PP says, it’s a graduate tax. Half of students never pay it off. It’s what the vast majority of students do without worrying about it. It’s not a bank loan. Lots of parents save the fees and let Dc have the money later for a house deposit.

How would it work with visas? My niece has done a language degree and had a nightmare with getting her visa for her year abroad, this led to not being able to secure housing. Housing seems to have been an issue for many of her fellow students too.

@HassallGreen
I would be concerned if housing was not supplied by the university. Some universities abroad have it and some don’t. Brexit has changed so much for the worse.

Thanks everyone.
I understand that it’s not treated like ‘ordinary’ debt, but we’re not keen on what would amount to putting him in a higher tax bracket for the entirety of his working life, when he won’t necessarily bump up his earning potential by having a degree.
The whole ‘study abroad’ thing is starting to sound incredibly complicated though, and maybe not the win we thought it might be.

Why is he in a higher tax bracket? Are you expecting him to earn £125,000 very quickly? Have you actually looked at what grads pay back? It’s not like income tax! Millions of people just pay what’s required. If he doesn’t get an earnings premium by having a degree, why on earth would you pay up front for it from an overseas university? Unless he can get to the USA on a needs blind deal, then it’s highly unlikely going to EU post Brexit is worth it if you are paying up front.

The whole idea of a degree is to get an earnings premium. The loans are trying to ensure the people who benefit pay for the benefit. Which, in general terms, seems fair.

The whole ‘study abroad’ thing is starting to sound incredibly complicated though, and maybe not the win we thought it might be.

No, it’s definitely not a quick win anymore. Or any type of win, really. It’s hard enough going to work abroad now, let alone study there 😵‍💫

Sadly it might be worth considering if studying is the right route for the career he wants, it is a lot of debt and if he might not get a good job at the end of it, it might not be worth it. It’s not the rite of passage it used to be. In a lot of sectors, you could do just as well if not better by getting an entry level job and working up, rather than joining a grad scheme. If a grad scheme is needed, it’s probably worth the debt if that’s what he wants to do.

That’s half the problem @TakeYourFinalPosition , he doesn’t really know what he wants to do. He’s saying physics because he likes it and it’s his best subject, and he can sort of see himself working in a research lab (but doesn’t want to work in a university, so not quite sure how that would work …).
I keep banging on about degree apprenticeships, maybe he’d be better exploring what’s available there, although I think he would like the traditional uni experience.
I think I may have worded it badly @TizerorFizz . I don’t think he’d be straight into a higher tax bracket, but if you think of it as a graduate tax he’d be paying more than someone who wasn’t paying back a loan, so it would feel like he was in a higher tax bracket.

But he would be earning more! He’s getting a benefit from his degree. Certainly a Physics one which should ensure he gets a good job. Why should much poorer people subsidise his degree and earnings with their tax?

On another point: I assume he’s doing maths as well as physics. Why not look at the various engineering degrees that are available. Many people who like physics don’t end up in labs at universities. There are far more careers available. Look at a good physics degree at a good university and see what alumni are doing. Also start looking at Engineering degrees.

Maybe look at doing a careers test (Morrisby) to get some ideas. University doesn’t have to be an extension of school. Engineers can earn very well in any number of disciplines and our degrees are recognised worldwide. As are our professional engineering qualifications.

I’ve suggested engineering @TizerorFizz , but he’s very lukewarm about it.
If he ends up working in a lab he probably won’t earn very well (I have experience of this…).
He’s doing maths, physics and chemistry, so whatever he does end up doing is going to be very stem focussed.
How do you go about accessing careers testing - or is that something that will happen at school?

Dutch Unis don’t habitually provide accommodation eg UVA and there is a housing crisis in most Dutch cities.

Accommodation in European unis can be really hard to find. NL is notorious for this. As PP mentioned non-EU fees can also be quite high. My friend's son is studying in Maastricht. Non-EU fees are 14k euros. Even EU fees are 4k. This compares with my dd's EU fees at a Belgian uni which are 900 euros. We had a huge struggle to find accommodation for her - many Belgian kids stay at home for this reason. There are no loans available for any of this either.

Her rent is 625 euros a month plus elec and wifi (and food). My friend's son is paying about 800 a month in Maastricht. The leases tend to be for the whole year too.

@igivein
Has he really explored all engineering? Nothing at all appeals? What are his hobbies? Whet does he enjoy?

We had the Morrisby test at private school but I believe you can buy this as an individual. It asks Dc to think about what they like, don’t like and explore their talents in other areas. Also don’t forget that university is a melting pot of ideas and ambitions. Often Dc meet others with broader goals and they also have careers fairs and services. He does need to find something that excites him.

He’s at private school @TizerorFizz so maybe they’ll sort that - if not I think it’s something we should look at.
He’s not exactly dynamic and proactive … if there was a career where he could spend all day playing strategy games on the computer he’d ace it!

Well there’s thousands like him. One in my family who has no idea where his A levels might take him. Sadly computer games are not great prep for a career! I would start looking at a broader spectrum of careers that involve physics. I know it’s spoon feeding, but you could do it. He just lacks a bit of imagination and maybe experience of the wider world.

As I think you're discovering it's a non-starter really. But given that even pre-Brexit you'd have had to pay upfront for his living costs presumably you can afford to pay his UK in