DS just asked me if it matters which university you go to

[Fadedpicture]

And I couldn't really formulate an answer.

I know Oxbridge and RG are more highly thought of, but from an employer's POV, how much difference does it make where you studied?

Is it different according to which subject you're doing or which sector you hope to work in?

I haven't found that at all @MerryChristmasToYou. You don't need a degree in English to be able to write well. Also there is actually a strong correlation between being a natural at coding and having a flair for MFL.

@sproutsandpancetta , that is completely different to my experience.
You don't need a degree in English to write well, but most software engineers I've worked with don't have good English, and other than those who have been brought up abroad, generally only speak English.

It's quite unrelated to the OP.

I have Oxbridge CS graduates. They write well.

I am a whizz at MFL and coding. Had no idea there was a link!

I should quality that. I wouldn't expect them to write a thesis on renaissance literature but they are more than able to write tech manual and general content in decent English.

There is apparently a link @LovelyRachel. A lot of parallels with learning a new language.

~qualify (spell check!)

I’ve found some of the best coders i recruited had learning disabilities around english… The best one of all, couldn’t string a single english sentance together for an email.

What was fantastic, was that when you give such opportunities to these candidates, they are far more loyal to you as an employer. There’s a whole heap of great coders out there that most employers dismiss because of a perceived weakness steeped in ‘what the mould usually is’.

One employers loss was almost always my gain.

I can totally see that. Its a different way of thinking and I have noticed that my son who is mildy dyslexic has a much more logical, flow diagram type of way of thinking than his siblings who can write great essays but could not write scripts if you paid them.

There are lots of different types of thinking and different types of jobs out there that suit different types of people. Not everyone needs to be a lawyer or a doctor and plenty of very wealthy or successful people did not have those particular skill sets. I work with a lot of IT salespeople and the ones that do really well (and make as much money as city lawyers and banker) are not the ones who come from extremely competitive academic backgrounds, in general. I find a lot of the rhetoric on MN to be very out of date - people in their fifties and sixties who are consultants and lawyers now don't necessarily see how the economy and modern workplaces have changed.

Excellent post @SmartWatch.
I think some posters sit in their ivory towers and have no idea of the real world outside their immediate sphere.

Interesting! Dyslexia amongst architects is very common too. I haven't worked with a single architectural technician or architect who hasn't got a learning disability of some type. (Me included!)

We had one ND architect with no CS degree. They were absolutely phenomenal. Agree they would never have said written English was their forte but who cared. They stayed a while but our business couldn't stretch them. We helped them exit to an extremely well-known software developer. It's not all about the earnings I know but their salary is well in excess of any lawyer/consultant I know at a similar age/career stage.

Actually some employers have to care. My DH has been an employer and not every every architect or engineer can sit beavering away without decent commend of English. Clients will care if communication with them is poor. Even internally, accuracy of communication is important. They would not have wanted offices full of people who could not write decent English. There’s a role in bigger companies but no hiding place in smaller ones.

Well thankfully most modern Architectural firms employ project managers and administrative people to communicate with clients. As architects are billable - they should be spending their time doing architectural / technical work and not communications. Usually how the firm makes money.

As architects cost more per hour than an administrator!

As a client if I was billed 5 mins for an architect to slowly type out an email to me at £XXXper hour - I'd be miffed.

Less miffed if an administrator billed us at £XX per hour in 2 mins.

On coders I had a software client and after a few meetings the directors brought in the programmer but had to explain to me in advance that he was brilliant but did not do normal things like look you in the eye etc. He was fine at answering questions about the possible copyright infringement but due how he was I can see why they chose not to present him to client (which was not needed anyway as they needed good coders for that role so no need to interface with the press).

The highest paid City type jobs do not want to exclude people from anywhere as they want the best people for the job. The main reason they recruit people, in some cases, more actively from harder to get into universities as there are more people there who are likely to be suitable for the job It is simply because of vast numbers applying and limited HR time. Eg there might be 2000 applications for 100 law firm training contract places. About 30,000 students apply for about 5500 training contracts a year. So having a AAB A level and 2/1 filter and requiring people to pass the Watson G tests and then have an interview with HR and only after that go on to assessment days helps to weed people out and law firms with the higher paid jobs will tend to go to the universities with the most students likely to meet the reuqirements of A level grades etc. However they do try to do some out reach and have apprenticeships and contextual programmes too as they don't want to lose the chance to recruit top people who are the brightest of the bright but came from difficult original circumstances.

@oher please give an example of a 'joke university'. I bet you haven't the bottle to put your money where your mouth is!

An alternative approach to the comms issue, both internal and external, is to employ a separate agency. Lots of companies, big and small, do this to write press releases, marketing documents, maintain and develop websites, write annual reports and (though this is less common these days) newsletters aimed at clients.

DH does a bit of this on a freelance basis for a couple of content agencies and it pays quite well so he can then spend the vast majority of his time doing the (less lucrative) writing he really enjoys.

Exactly @ffUNNYfACE36 I asked way upthread but no response! But they don't exist.

I cannot say why employers are not so keen on English from lower tier universities but it might be what is studied and maybe they think it’s a little self indulgent?

Sorry been out of range for a few days – and Happy Christmas everyone!

I might have some insight into this @TizerorFizz as DH is a writer and a younger member of the family recently completed an English degree.

In my humble opinion (well, DH's to be honest), the traditional universities, including redbrick as well as RG, tend to make it hard to avoid studying a broad range of Literature through the ages and also you are likely to have to study novels, poems and plays – it would be virtually impossible to avoid one whole genre or even one whole century. Obviously you can angle your degree to favour a certain era or genre but you will have to study some stuff you don't much like!

The former polys (and again, this is a generalisation) are more likely to offer 'themed' modules, for example Class and Culture in Literature, Society in Literature, the child in Literature, or Literature and Colonization. Nothing wrong with such an approach per se, but you can see immediately how much easier it is to focus on a narrow range of works/authors who you already enjoy. There is nothing there which will take you out of your comfort zone and study something you might prefer to avoid.

FWIW the latter graduate may be no less employable than the former, but they will undoubtedly be less well read, generally. An English degree which doesn't oblige you to study a single one of Shakespeare, Chaucer, Milton, Austen, Dickens, Joyce, Hardy, Bronte (either), Conrad, Lawrence, James, Wordsworth, Eliot, the metaphysical poets, the war poets, Pinter or Stoppard leaves a lot of gaps…

Not RTFT but my DH works in the City and their HR removes school and uni information (and other info) from applications to stop prejudicial selection.

I'm sure this will be adopted going forward across all industries.

Not RTFT but my DH works in the City and their HR removes school and uni information (and other info) from applications to stop prejudicial selection.

Do they remove A levels and GCSE grades as well?

@RampantIvy I believe your DD is currently looking at Masters courses…? I think you will find that most universities couldn't care less what her A level results were, they will only be interested in her degree (and possibly her dissertation in particular). As I further believe she got a First, I don't think she has anything to worry about.

@thing47
Yes. I think your DH is spot on. Broader Lit degrees mean something. A bit like broader MFL degrees. Your list of authors was partially covered by my school for O level, never mind degree.

Only large practices of Architects/Engineers employ comms people. They are not remotely qualified to explain detailed design to clients! DH has long made plenty of money by fronting his company on detailed presentations. They made excellent money by having the most experienced do it. The clients wanted that too. They certainly wouldn’t want someone unqualified to talk to them about SUDS, traffic management design or complex structural design. DHs time was factored in. The engineering staff too. Many middle sized consultancies work like this although can have an admin MD of course.

Not RTFT but my DH works in the City and their HR removes school and uni information (and other info) from applications to stop prejudicial selection.

I can see that you could hide which specific school someone went to, but it would be hard in some cases to disguise type of school, eg A level German (assuming it was a recent school leaver) would say "probably private school" to me, given how few state schools now offer German.

Unless the prospective employee went to a well known independent school I wouldn't have thought where they went to school would have any significance to the employer anyway, given that most people are state school educated.

Some city firms are well aware that their employee base is heavily weighted to independent schools. Whilst the majority of "people" may be state educated, that just isn't the case in top jobs or top firms.

A friend of mine does.all the (state) school liason for his firm because he's the only solicitor in his large city firm who had a state education.