How to work out whether Oxbridge will suit dd

[balzamico]

I'm ahead of myself here, dd has an interview for History at Oxford next week.
She is vacillating between excitement/ pride at getting this far and "I don't want to go, I want a normal (fun) uni experience"
Obviously it may be a decision that is made for her but if she were to get an offer can anyone advise how to work out whether it would work for her?
Her dad and I both went to RG unis, had a great time, came out with average degrees and have done well.
We only know one youngster whose been through the system and she is very different from dd

Tbh I think if she feels it’s not for her and she wants a “normal” experience then it possibly isn’t for her. The workload is significantly higher than RG unis (ten essays in an eight week term back in my day), and the intensity of that workload is something else. Students are expected to genuinely love their subject and commit themselves accordingly. And that’s before the intense extra curriculars are added on.

What are her priorities and how academically gifted is she? Does she really have a deep interest in her subject that means she reads about it just for fun? Has she sought out extra curricular activities related to it? Or is she just quite good at it at school so it’s what she’s chosen? If the last of these, Oxbridge might not offer that many benefits beyond basic prestige. If the former, yes, she may thrive. Similarly, is she genuinely streets ahead of her classmates or simply performing at a consistently high, but not genuinely exceptional, level? If the latter, and if she wants to have fun at university, Oxbridge might not be right for her. As PP said, the workload at Oxbridge can be pretty crushing and a student for whom writing essays is merely hard work rather than the work element of a passion, it can be exhausting. The tutorial system can also be quite competitive and demoralising for those students who find themselves at the bottom end of the talent pool. Does she manage stress well? Oxbridge can be a real recipe for anxiety and burn out if not.
I think the most important thing for you to do is be clear that you don’t mind where she goes so long as she feels it is going to be right for her. If she gets in discuss with her the likely work schedule. Talk to her about what else she might want to do — does she want to socialise, take part in mentoring programs, act, play music, play sport? Does she feel she’d have time for that alongside the Oxbridge schedule?
It’s such an exciting prospect, and both universities are so completely architecturally seductive, that if she gets in it may feel very hard for her to turn it down. But the fact that she already sees that there is a life beyond Oxbridge should stand her in good stead whatever happens and whatever she chooses.

I had fun at Cambridge. It was really nice to be part of a smaller college community and I made friends for life (three of us just about to celebrate our 50th birthdays together).

I wasn't massively passionate about my subject. Neither were lots of my friends. We all managed just fine, if you aren't gunning for a First you can easily combine study and having a social life. It's also easy as you get nice rooms and all live close together. The towns are stunning (I have lived in both as I did a postgrad course in (not at) Oxford).

I don't recognise the Cambridge experience I had from the previous posts in this thread. I didn't meet many people there who regretted taking up their place.

I take a different view on this from many on here. Personally I think it’s a great pity that very able applicants and potential applicants are at risk of being put off by the idea that they won’t have time for any fun at Oxford. My 3 years there (PPE in the late ‘80s) were honestly the best of my life - I played violin in OUO, sang and toured with Schola Cantorum, acted (badly), rowed (badly), socialised and bopped and fell in love. I still came away with a good First and a college prize. I remain close to wonderful friends I made in my time there. I actually didn’t find it as academically intense as my 6th form years with 4 demanding A-levels.

I don’t see any reason why Oxford shouldn’t be just as enjoyable in the 21st century. My niece is a young doctor who got two sporting Blues and had a fantastic university experience on her way to graduating either top or near the top of her Oxford medics’ cohort.

OP, I do hope your DD won’t talk herself out of any opportunities which come her way. Best of luck to her for the interview process.

I'm about 15 years younger than you but this mirrors my experience at Cambridge too. I had a great time. Good quality accommodation, everything close by, lots of opportunities. I came out with a very solid 2.1, took part in loads of activities (some, I suspect, were much better for my CV than getting a first), made lovely friends, met my husband, went for meals and drinks often, had a great bursary which made university life much easier for me than it would otherwise have been, and instant access to weekly counselling when I had a blip and couldn't wrap my head around one of my papers. It was really great for me. I'm from a lower socio economic background, first in family to go to uni. I found plenty of people like me and dare I say even the ultra privileged students were, on the whole, very nice and pleasant!

It may have been an academic mistake (although I think not!) but I did not 'take' to the residential Oxford college I applied to when I went for interview. I turned the place down and went elsewhere. My mother never forgave me, but my ex-Oxbridge headmistress calmly supported my decision. Good woman.

I think times have changed quite a lot. Or at least, so say the people I know who are a few years younger than you and attended Oxford and currently teach there. A lot of the behaviour they remember from less academically high achieving contemporaries they say would not be tolerated now. They also talk a lot about how many students are cracking up with anxiety and stress these days. I’ve seen at at the RG unis I’ve taught at myself, so it’s not restricted to Oxbridge.

A lot of the behaviour they remember from less academically high achieving contemporaries they say would not be tolerated now.

Whoa, hang on a minute, I didn't "misbehave" and I got a solid 2:1, a perfectly good academic achievement thank you (the Magic Circle law firm who employed me certainly thought so).

Most people worked hard enough, and very few were slackers who ended up with thirds.

Oh and also I went there from a state comprehensive, first in my family to go to University. I felt socially very at ease though and, like a PP, even found the privileged ones by and large very nice people.

Cambridge grads here.

I don't recognise the posts talking about huge numbers of students having a passion for their subject.

Yes I enjoyed history and still do - still get excited by a good history drama or documentary.

But at college the weekly was a necessary chore to get done so that I could get on with my real priorities- falling in love, having sex, drinking loads and all the rest of the usual normal stuff.

Of course I found the work interesting but not as interesting as my first love's dream body and all the new mates I could make at different colleges ....

Education is wasted on the young.

Your DD should go for it with all her heart. If you go there Cambridge quickly becomes normal. All the normal shit goes on there - washing work fall outs heartbreak lack of money hangovers essay crises disappointing results in prelims etc.

Yep, state comp too and went to college with loads of people from all backgrounds. Shock horror the ones from Eton and Cheltenham ladies college were ... nice human beings and real people. As was the lad from the rough end of Glasgow and the lass from bethnal green who was the only girl in her family so far able to speak English.

My DS is there at the moment and having a wonderful time, lots of hard work in a subject he enjoys (mostly) and lots of fun socialising and rowing and hanging out.

My take on Oxbridge is all to do with the tutorial system. Will your dc enjoy/survive that. Its the main difference. DC need to be able to work independently and solve academic problems independently. There is very little spoon feeding and often the lectures do not line up with the tutorials. Some people love it and fly and some people hate it and get very stressed/unhappy

I went less than 10 years ago and my experience mirrors this - I played sports, I was in a play (I was terrible), I drank lots, and I made really really good friends. I also got a solid 2.I in a STEM subject I was good at (but not exceptional) and for which I didn’t have a huge amount of passion as it turns out. I got a good grad job out of uni. Go to Cambridge, it’s great.

Make no comment one way or the other and let her decide.

There's all sorts of students at Oxbridge and all thrive in their own ways, so I wouldn't worry about your daughter being different to the person you know. I went over a decade ago now (History too), from a state school, and had a brilliant time. Yes you have to work a lot harder than many universities but everyone works hard and plays hard. Everyone I knew did multiple extra curricular things which for many led to careers (theatre etc). Went to "clubs" 3 times a week. Made friends for life. All the usual stuff. I did all of that and got a first. So as long as she's up for working hard she won't miss out on everything else too. Plus the terms are a bit shorter so you catch up on sleep in the holidays...!

Cambridge grad here. As an English Lit undergrad the main difference with school friends at other Unis was the workload and intensity - i.e. an essay a week, intense 121 and small group supervisions weekly, and being a self-starter to make sense of what lectures that only happen once a year you will need to go to now to prep for next term's workload (which was confusing AF initially!)

Short 8 week terms with lots of midnight oil burnt and running on 4 hours sleep! Then crawl home to lie under a duvet for the entire holidays to recover... :)

The dark side of it all is the mental ill-health, self-harm, etc for those who don't thrive in that environment and are not good under pressure. I do think the Oxbridge admissions teams are good at identifying that type and not offering to them, but some do get through and end up having breakdowns... But the pastoral care and support at my college was great, possibly better than at RG Unis where the students are more anonymous and have less 121 support?

FWIW I would definitely encourage my own kids to apply if they are academic, as my personal experience was incredible. I was by no means a swot, I did lots of drinking and socialising, fell in love frequently, snogged very beautiful elite rowers, etc etc. Also did tons of acting, some directing, plays at the Edinburg fringe, all that jazz. Amazing incredible opportunities for a state school kid, definitely wouldn't have got that anywhere else (and I pulled off a 1st too but that was quite a fluke).

Thank you all, I am doing my best to support dd in the background whilst not influencing her. Mostly your replies have been hugely reassuring- it's absolutely her decision (if she's gets through)

I think your experience may have been different today.
DD has been completely put off, the two students we know who went to Oxbridge, both from a very below average state school and both from not very well off backgrounds have dropped out. One of them was a total shock. One had difficulty financially with extra course based costs (I don't want to out that person so won't go into details, but zero understanding from the college), they weren't well supported and also struggled with the work load.
One of them is now working, the other walked into a place at a RG uni and is thriving.

It is simply not true that all students thrive at Oxbridge. Even 20 years ago the level of mental health problems was staggering. The students who aren’t thriving aren’t necessarily on their peers’ radar as they won’t be joining in with every club and propping up the bar. It’s a deep regret of mine that I did not make the most of my experience.

I wouldn’t have chosen to go anywhere else but I have friends who wish they had in retrospect. Similarly I would encourage DC to apply if they were academic but I have other friends who absolutely would not.

DS is there now doing History. He and his friends all agree it is not worth it. The workload is immense (12 essays in 8 weeks) DD does 6 at St Andrews. His graduate friends say the job boost is no more. To make matters worse, he is Scottish so would not have had to pay for his second choice.

It is a great, historic place and he has had a ball. The pastoral support is superb and the resources are amazing.

I enjoyed Oxford many years ago. Plenty of time to do things other than work, Contemporaries who are now academics there have told me that students work harder these days and there is more pressure on them now.

I have just completed a vocational degree - that was far harder work than my Oxford degree.

there is absolutely amazing fun to be had at Oxford (and cambridge). what on earth gave her the impression that she wouldn't? both places have an overwhelming array of clubs and societies for every possible kind of social activity and interest so it's easy to find your tribe and make friends for life. you're mostly in charge of your time except for modest set commitments so its fine to enjoy a vibrant social life so long as you leave yourself sufficient non-hungover time for academic pursuits.

obviously this is true of non-oxbridge universities too so it's not a "USP" for going there, but there's no lack there that could be offputting.

the question about whether or not she should go is more about other stuff entirely. does she genuinely love her subject, to the extent that she actively enjoys studying it rather than resenting school and homework time spent on it? as she tackles the A-level syllabus, to what extent is she still being "taught" and to what extent is she not really needing to be actively taught so much because she happily reads and absorbs the set text books and can spend lesson time thinking about and talking about the material at greater depth? Teaching as such can be a little patchy at Oxbridge as the staff are generally appointed for being the leading research minds in their fields with teaching skills and interest not being prioritised, but this generally doesn't matter because the bright young things studying there are generally quite capable of teaching themselves what they need to know. meanwhile thanks to the tutorial system the kind of opportunity that students elsewhere might get only occasionally, the chance to have an in-depth one-to-one conversation with a brilliant academic at the peak of their career, is something that is scheduled once a week (naturally to ensure this conversation isn't too boring for the tutor one is required to have done specific reading and written a set essay to show your understanding of it, this being a genuinely enjoyable way of interacting with the subject matter if you have the right mindset) - if that doesn't sound amazing and wonderful and she doesn't want that level of intellectual stimulation then of course she will be happier elsewhere.

DC need to be able to work independently and solve academic problems independently. There is very little spoon feeding and often the lectures do not line up with the tutorials. Some people love it and fly and some people hate it and get very stressed/unhappy

DD graduated this year with a STEM degree from an RG university. Your description matched up with her experience. There was no spoon feeding or hand holding and the onus was very much on the student to work independently.

DD would not have thrived at Oxbridge though.

I did history at Oxford ten years ago and had the best time! Made friends for life, met my DH and worked as little as I could get away with. Came out with a solid but not stellar 2.1 which was good enough to get me the career I wanted.

Tutorials can be intense as it’s either just you and the tutor or with one other student and there is a lot more work than most other universities. However, I managed to work very intensively 2 days a week and do whatever I wanted the rest of the time. I am not suggesting that’s a good strategy (those who did best academically treated it like a job, worked 9-5ish and then did what they wanted in the evenings) but it gives you an idea of how much work is actually essential.

Extra curriculars can make you very busy but obviously they are completely optional. Personally I went to a lot of events with various student groups so I was busy and interested but I didn’t get involved in running the groups so there was no extra stress.

Oxford is also a fantastic city to live in, loads to do etc.

There also isn’t an Oxford “type” so if she’s worried about everyone being super intense then she shouldn’t be - there are plenty of people like that if she gets on with them but there’s also plenty more “normal” people so she will find her tribe.

The social environment can be toxic - if your face doesn't fit expect bullying and exclusion that the university won't engage with

they probably think it character building or weeding out the weak

If you make it through then it's a great step up the hierarchy