Do students doing "harder" A levels get lower offers?

[Sarahcoggles]

DS is in year 13 and is about to submit is UCAS form, hoping to study geography.

Looking at universities, they all state their entry requirements in A level grades or UCAS points.

DS is kicking himself for choosing 3 tough A levels (history, geography and French), rather than choosing subjects like sociology, media etc which are traditionally less demanding. French in particular is incredibly difficult, totally different from the GCSE. He says that his offers will be for the same grades as pupils doing easier A levels, but will be much harder to achieve for him.

Is he right? Or do universities modify offers depending on how challenging a particular subject is?

Please don't accuse me of being snobby by the way. It's just simple fact that further maths, for example, is going to be more difficult than health and social care.

@Piggywaspushed
Those grads might find it more difficult to get grad paying jobs. Certainly History and Drama. We also have loads and loads of geography/environment/zoology grads all wanting to save the world. They won’t all get jobs in their chosen field. Add in English, Film, Media Studies, Sociology, Art, Dance, Philosophy and a few others and there’s little issue with recruitment.

That wasn't the point I was making. I was saying that in most schools students are likely to have geography teachers who have geography degrees, are the best teachers from a decent field of interviewees , and are likely to still be around at the end of a student's A levels.

Also, reaching is a 'grad paying job' !?

Teaching, obviously...

By the way tizer, there are recruitment issues in English.

Yes. Teaching is. But lots of the grads we churn out don’t get them. More stem grads do. Hence the issues. Teaching is attractive to some but not others who want a different career building on their stem knowledge. Getting no drama roles is pants. Teaching looks far better career wise!

You don't think the government is trying actively to dissuade and undermine the study of and careers in the arts, errol?

I've no idea. I can't imagine why anyone would want to dissuade anyone from careers in the arts. I can imagine there may not be much support for youngsters doing 'arts' degrees many of which aren't actually likely to lead to to such careers.

Churning out more STEM graduates won’t help either, though, if the problem is too many graduates for not enough graduate jobs. If done properly, STEM degrees are generally more expensive to run, require more expensive facilities, and take up more physical space, than subjects like history and English, which are effectively subsidising STEM degrees. Universities are flogging undergraduate courses, not employment opportunities. Why spend more on running a more expensive degree course if you get paid no more for it and half your students still end up in a non-graduate job, anyway? Would half the people currently doing drama, or dance, or English, or history, actually want to touch a STEM degree with a barge pole? Is the point of university really to study a subject you dislike in order to make yourself more employable? Are you more employable at the end of a degree you didn’t really engage with? Might there be better ways of learning what you need for employment than a university degree, if you do not actually have any academic interest in the subject you are studying?

Most stem degrees have high grad employment rates. Environmental science is about the lowest. The last time I looked. We need stem grads. Many areas report not enough grads. Not too many. English is obviously very different. Engineering, for example. Is precise. You can be an engineer. If you study English you can do lots of things but not a stem job.

That does not mean I don’t value non stem degrees. I do. However the shortages we have regarding employment are mostly stem jobs. Yes the degrees are expensive but we cannot keep recruiting from abroad. In fact people wanting to come here isn’t what it was. If the only reason we have thousands of degrees offered is to subsidise stem, that’s a poor reason for having those degrees that the country pays for. Maybe better use of resources is needed?

Isn’t the government linking employment of graduates to funding for universities to address this?

Agree entirely with Tizerorfizz.

Looking at engineering degrees, however, the competition to get the places on the worthwhile courses is already intense, grade expectations are extremely high, and plenty of “degree” level jobs didn’t really need a degree in the first place, it’s just that UK employers provide very little vocational training. So of course employment rates are good - limiting the number of courses and only offering them to the very best applicants does that. And then those graduates often just decide to make money in the City, anyway, rather than actually become engineers and do something worthwhile with their skills.

Employers are putting in far too little effort themselves to get the end results they actually want or need. They want the taxpayer to provide them with the goods, or to buy it in cheap from abroad.

So, what is the point in encouraging more people to do STEM A-levels if you then just create a bottleneck, rather than making effective use of it? What is wrong with the employers who should be providing the apprenticeships? Why so loathe to provide proper training to school leavers? And if more academics are required, then why fund universities so badly for providing the courses, so that not enough courses are on offer in the first place?

Engineers are a shortage at all levels not just graduate/ elite.

Sorry but that’s utter rubbish @Walkaround
The vast majority of our engineering degrees are accredited by the Engineering Council and are absolutely worthwhile. It’s difficult to think what a “not worthwhile” engineering degree would be. You really cannot be snobby about engineering degrees. Accreditation means everything and this is not just for the top 10 university courses. DH seems to have employed many grads over the years from bog standard universities and most have been fine. In fact they rarely see grads from the most well known universities. They are still highly successful with a great workload. With Engineering it’s not vital to go to any particular university. Thank god. And it’s definitely not competitive.

In fact one of our biggest problems is getting engineers to even stay in engineering post graduating. Other number crunching jobs pay more.

@Rummikub Yes they are. I’m also well aware you cannot turn a film buff into a stem grad . However a professional, and qualified engineer, will be a graduate. A bit like being a solicitor. Engineer is used in this country to mean technician. Someone who mends the coffee machine. It’s about time we recognised the difference. You cannot design complicated structures or sign them off without being qualified!

@TizerorFizz - which bit of my post said engineering degrees are not worthwhile?! 🤣 There are several engineers in my family. Some didn’t even train in this country, due to the low esteem in which engineering has always been held in the UK compared to countries like Switzerland, Germany and France. And you are just repeating my point that lots of people don’t actually seek employment in engineering after completing a degree, anyway - but adding in the additional fact that you can be paid more doing something else, anyway. So why do a degree and end up in debt and stay in engineering just because employers don’t want to fund your training? Would be better to decide what universities are for, first. What was wrong with the polytechnics? What is wrong with employers making more effort with apprenticeships?

It might be that for many students who want to do a degree but don't have a very specific passion/may not excel at it/probably won't be able to get a job in that field - then a broader degree may be the way forward. Something like 'liberal arts' perhaps though I'm not sure that's the right term as it should ideally include education about science and tech, and continuing numeracy skills (or at least, options in those areas).

Engineer is used in this country to mean technician. Someone who mends the coffee machine.

I too was shocked to hear the person repairing our washing machine described as an 'engineer'

In Germany an engineer (Ingenieur) is a highly qualified certified engineer! Not a tradesman...?!

Agree that ‘engineer’ is mixed up with ‘technician’.

I don’t think engineers are poorly paid but I guess could earn more in other areas.

I don’t think engineers are poorly paid

They are certainly not as 'valued' in the UK as in many other countries I've lived in.

Engineers are very highly valued and better paid in Germany. They recognise how important they are and how they can make a positive impact on the society we live in.

I do think that a lot of STEM professions are not regarded highly enough in the UK though.

I agree that engineers in the UK are not as highly regarded as in other countries. In France you frequently see 'Ingénieur' on the nameplate of houses, in the same way you have 'Avocat' or 'Médicin'. It is rightly considered a top profession. I personally know a number of very bright and disillusioned Chartered engineers who sponsored themselves for top MBAs, changed direction and doubled their salaries.

They do modify offers for STEM courses as they are on a different level - but I have never seen it done for arts subjects.

I think this depends on the engineer. A lot of UK engineers go into the subject because they want to do something else & feel engineering is a stepping stone. Eg I know people who do engineering studies because they want to design software but feel engineering is ‘better’ suited for that than computer science - which is crazy & an explanation why Data Science as a profession is full of ‘engineering grads’ who can’t code.

People like my husband who has always wanted to be an engineer & progressed to the top through doing the right course for the profession he wants to go into do get the salary and the prestige.

Ds was earning £75k within 2 years of graduating with a MEng