Do students doing "harder" A levels get lower offers?

[Sarahcoggles]

DS is in year 13 and is about to submit is UCAS form, hoping to study geography.

Looking at universities, they all state their entry requirements in A level grades or UCAS points.

DS is kicking himself for choosing 3 tough A levels (history, geography and French), rather than choosing subjects like sociology, media etc which are traditionally less demanding. French in particular is incredibly difficult, totally different from the GCSE. He says that his offers will be for the same grades as pupils doing easier A levels, but will be much harder to achieve for him.

Is he right? Or do universities modify offers depending on how challenging a particular subject is?

Please don't accuse me of being snobby by the way. It's just simple fact that further maths, for example, is going to be more difficult than health and social care.

There is a small group of students that realistically can look at their options in regards to future CVs knowing that the can get the grades regardless of the subject. the rest who plan to go to university know the need grades, whether that be three A stars or three Cs. DS knew which type of university he wanted before he’d chosen a course. He choose three subjects that interested him but was strong at and dropped further Math once he got the AS, purely for grade reasons. Subjects that are harder for an individual taken for CV or myths that certain universities will not accept is harmful advice for a large number of students who need grades.

Facilitating subjects were subjects which facilitated other A Levels

That's not quite right.

It concerned how subjects were treated for university entrance purposes.

It still exists, but the general one has vanished but the parallel/closely linked Trinity one still exists, but it now called 'preferred combinations'

Perhaps the term was abandoned because it was getting misunderstood

Wasn’t it simply a way of highlighting the subjects that were more general and allowed access to more degree options?

Yes that was one of the uses

I know A-level law used to be actively disliked by quite a few university law departments, so was a better subject to choose if you did not want to do a law degree than if you did. I don’t think any university makes this dislike explicit any more, but I can’t help noticing it is always specified that it is not a required A-level choice for a law degree, and then a massively long list of not-law A-levels are given as good choices, which imvho means many still don’t actually like A-level law much. So, from the perspective of “facilitating subjects,” law was never one of them.

I don’t think it’s right if they do. I suppose it depends on the university and subject matter.
Mind you I did two sciences and theatre studies and got my lowest grade in the latter. I wasn’t a natural at essay based exams.

Do you?
I thought you wanted a proper job where you could pick up your kids from school?
www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4679367-are-we-morally-obliged-to-work?reply=121616584&utm_source=thread&utm_medium=share

I find it odd that Sociology is considered a ‘soft’ subject. I did it alongside English and History, it was actually very similar to History in the sense that you had to evaluate and apply knowledge of a wide range of sociological theory going back to Weber, Foucault and so on, we also covered a lot of feminist theory which was absolutely fascinating. Some of the less academic students who were steered onto it as the teachers thought it would help working in childcare etc (!) really really struggled with it, and most dropped out before the exam. I went on to study Classics at Cambridge and they didn’t look down on it either!

That's not quite right.
It concerned how subjects were treated for university entrance purposes.

Pretty sure I'm right...

I think we are dealing with semantics there meditrina. The facilitating subjects facilitated other subjects and were seen as more generalised , thus opening more doors to more degrees. But that really only ever worked if you combined different types of them , really. On MN, it is used interchangeable with 'more rigorous' or 'tougher' and the whole thing was never helpful for widening participation (some state schools don't offer quite a few of them), hence in part why the term and the discussion around it at uni level was dropped.

It is, of course, perfectly OK for a university to require science subjects to study certain degrees (although that definition is increasingly broad) but it is extremely unusual for art and hums degrees o specify subjects beyond itself (eg you need history for history but otherwise anything goes - in fact sometimes you don't even need history!). What chi certain is that anyone with an essay writing background (and perhaps an A level which encourages research skills) will probably make the transition to undergrad study better.

I absolutely agree with what crazy said about subjects like sociology looking easier to a lay person than , for example, a language or maths. I feel the same watching University Challenge when a maths or science round comes on - but the students seem often to be able to answer so I assume the knowledge isn't as tough as it seems : just exclusive!

Psychology has done a very good rebranding recently. It used to be grouped with the soft subjects - but seems now on here to be viewed as a proper hard subject. I think this is because of the push towards sciences being more worthy and psychology being viewed as a science subject where once many saw it as a social science.

Ironically, I teach a boy right at the bottom end of what one might hope for sitting an A Levels ( a smattering of 4s at GCSE). He does sociology, geography and hospitality. In addition to not being very able, he has issues with reading and writing. He may well also be an unrecognised dyslexic. Despite a couple of ex ma concession, he routinely fails or scores an E in sociology practice exams and yet the geography department award him Cs and Ds. That rather suggests to me, that the demands of sociology are greater for anyone who is not very able and/or has specific literacy difficulties. For a start, geography still has coursework to bolster his grades where sociology has 3 written exams - no multiple choices, no short answers, and no simple definition or factual responses.

Everything changes all the time. Back in my day at my school, history was regarded as properly intellectual and geography was for the less able or sporty outdoorsy types. Clearly rampant nonsense.

I think the a level language may well make him more employable. Especially with geography which presumably may include travelling! Whilst at 17 it might seem that getting into uni is the most important thing, I’d be encouraging him that he’s taken a subject that will actually be quite useful for the rest of his life

I agree with meditrina that the traditional subjects perhaps used to be something parents with not much knowledge of A levels did not understand who thought all A levels were equal and that when it was suggested by universities the harder traditional ones might facilitate your university entrance that helped those without the inside knowledge to realise what others already knew.

The fact the university do not use the term has not removed the concept however and if you want to do well it can be wise to look at what subjects the top state grammar schools recommend to pupils which is usually at least 2 of the traditional subjects.

It is also worth looking at the linked in profiles of new graduates who are in jobs the students would like to have to see what A levels they studied as often the profile will set out the A level choices.

I’ve taught A level -

English Lit
English Lang
English Lit/Lang
Media Studies
Film Studies

and a bunch of vocational stuff besides. The current Media Studies A level course is far and away the most difficult and demanding of all of those! It requires an amazing level of theory knowledge, lots of content to memorise, good essay writing skills, wide-ranging general knowledge and perceptive analysis skills. It’s not just watching Eastenders and writing a review, or running around with a camera (precious little of the latter in fact).

Many centres are switching to Film over Media as it’s a much more accessible course (I wouldn’t say easier as such but more straightforward). And my A-star Film students are doing fantastic essay writing. Definitely well-prepared for undergraduate study in any humanities subject I’d say.

The fact the university do not use the term has not removed the concept however and if you want to do well it can be wise to look at what subjects the top state grammar schools recommend to pupils

Or even offer! Academically selective schools do not tend to offer Media Studies, Business Studies, Photography or Sociology for example.

Yes they do!

On the subject of film, my understanding was the swap was being made because the new media A level is dry, dull and theory led rather than more difficult.

Film studies is one of the fastest growing A levels ( partly because of abandonment of media)and increasingly offered at many grammar and private schools, contrary to what people on MN make up believe. Approximately 1.7% of all entries get an A star. So if grammar schools are choosing it for easy nailed on top grades, I hope they looked at the stats!

Sociology is offered in lots of grammar schools and is the third fastest growing A level and the 4th largest non core GCSE. Its hardly a rarity.

My children have attended a grammar school. Sadly they do not offer sociology. They do offer:

Psychology
dance
drama
business
PE
economics
politics
music
art

plus the standard biology, chemistry, history etc.

students taking multiple of the above get into competitive unis every year to study competitive subjects.

@xenia hasn’t done her homework! I’ve just looked at the sixth form subjects offered at 6 of the (super selective) grammar schools in our region. Between them they offer Drama and Theatre Studies, Business, Photography, Sociology, Economics, Classical Civilisation, Politics, Psychology, Design and Technology and probably one or two more ‘non facilitating’ subjects I’ve forgotten!

This is because they know universities don’t distinguish between subjects when they make offers. They have their required subjects for particular degrees, as always, but they don’t actively choose students with ‘hard’ subjects for humanities degrees over students with sociology/photography etc. Unless you need particular subjects for say Medicine or Pharmacy or Engineering, you’re always better off choosing subjects you’ll enjoy and do well in.

@Piggywaspushed that’s what I meant by more accessible - less theory (especially as the theory in Media is spurious and shoehorned into the course, and in the case of at least one theorist, he says they’ve misunderstood his work!) and more engaging texts. Film isn’t easier at all and it’s a lot of work from day 1 but if a student gets into the swing of it and thinks hard and reads/watches around the subject I’d say an A/B is more achievable. However someone who just plods through and expects to learn everything from sitting listening to the teacher and doing no extra work won’t do well. It definitely rewards engaged students (which is as it should be).

I teach film atomic!

I’m just fending off the “mickey mouse” comments I’m sure are coming about Film…!

Anyway I hated the Media course and any student coming out with an A-star in that has worked like crazy to get it.

Some of the selective schools will offer a more limited range of subjects simply because they're usually significantly smaller than sixth form colleges.

A lot of ideas about 'facilitating subjects' and the relative difficulty of courses is doubtless historical, may have been more relevant before the reform of A levels but not now.

There is a lot of misunderstanding about geography, I think. It's one of the few subjects that spans the social sciences (lots of overlap with politics, economics, sociology, anthropology and even psychology) at one end of the spectrum; whereas at the the other end, if they are interested in seismology, geology etc, there are obvious overlaps with the sciences. Look at the Oxbridge stats. There has been a huge surge in applications for geography in the last few years. The odds of a place at Cambridge used to be 1 in 3/4. Now it's one in six and rising. It's now more competitive than History, MML, English, Classics and many other subjects. Application numbers have at least doubled since 2018. By the way, HSPS at Cambridge (which is basically Sociology / Anthopology) is one of the most competitive subjects at Cambridge with about 9 applicants per place. More competitive than Natural Sciences or Maths (which are similar to Geography in terms of numbers if applicants to available places).

The surge in Geography applications is no doubt due to increasing awareness of climate change which is the greatest challenge for the next generation. Geography allows for incredible breadth of interest - eg. how will climate change affect human migration patterns - how will this affect global inequality - how should governments plan for this imminent crisis - how can these rapidly growing economies ensure sustainability? On the other hand, you could spend years looking at a specific ecosystem, or even a transect of ice or rock to measure it's erosion or chemical properties. They can look at cultural geographies; legal, economic or political geographies - or anything. Geography requires the ability to synthesise data and IT competence, as well as good literacy skills. Teresa May did a Geography degree - it did her no harm! It enables you to see the world through many lenses. Like any subject, it is what you make if it, but geography is an incredibly relevant, contemporary and dynamic subject to tackle the greatest issues we face in this world. It's not just colouring in!

The one piece of advice I'd give is to only do one of art, music, design technology and probably drama and dance because the workload on those subjects is insane. All have the ability to expand beyond all available time and have a big project element.

Could maybe do 2 in combination with maths or a MFL if you find either maths or the MFL easy but my experience is that art is a LOAD of work, music you need a solid level (so an hour plus of practice a day) at an instrument plus some ability in composing (which is a massive time suck) DT is very like art in the level of project work. Less direct experience of Drama and Dance but performance rehearsals will definitely eat time.

I was lucky enough to be traditionally academic (all 3 of my a-levels were in the top few on the list above) but would have struggled with any of the more creative a-levels, both on sheer workload (I preferred the definite right/wrong of maths and languages) and lack of talent or creativity.

Geography allows for incredible breadth of interest

It's not even confined to studying the Earth nowadays!