Do students doing "harder" A levels get lower offers?

[Sarahcoggles]

DS is in year 13 and is about to submit is UCAS form, hoping to study geography.

Looking at universities, they all state their entry requirements in A level grades or UCAS points.

DS is kicking himself for choosing 3 tough A levels (history, geography and French), rather than choosing subjects like sociology, media etc which are traditionally less demanding. French in particular is incredibly difficult, totally different from the GCSE. He says that his offers will be for the same grades as pupils doing easier A levels, but will be much harder to achieve for him.

Is he right? Or do universities modify offers depending on how challenging a particular subject is?

Please don't accuse me of being snobby by the way. It's just simple fact that further maths, for example, is going to be more difficult than health and social care.

One teenager's easy is another's difficult. In my year at school (long time ago) the girl who got a scholarship to Oxford to read maths got a B in French and As in Maths further maths and Physics. The girl who went to Oxford to read MFL got As in French and Spanish and a B in history. I got an A in history and a letter from the exam board to say it was one of the top ones in the UK that year - doesn't necessarily mean I'm cleverer than the other two just that I found history interesting and quite easy. I actually found French hard and got a B at O level.

How can I find out what unis are looking for for a levels. Do they say on their websites? My dd doesn't know what to choose for her her a levels between sociology, English lit, psychology, modern history, classical studies ie ancient history and maybe film or media studies and she doesn't know what to study at uni either

Yes, they do, though it is a bit hard to know where to start if she doesn't have any idea what course she might want to do where. Googling <subject> <uni> "entry requirements" should get you to the right sort of web page.

There's a site where you can put in a combination of a level subjects and it will show what degrees people with them do, I think... I can't remember the name but I'm sure someone here knows what I mean

How can I find out what unis are looking for for a levels. Do they say on their websites? My dd doesn't know what to choose for her her a levels between sociology, English lit, psychology, modern history, classical studies ie ancient history and maybe film or media studies and she doesn't know what to study at uni either

That's the problem with A levels - you have to narrow down your subjects to only 3 or 4.

In most European countries pupils take at least 8 subjects until 18, including Maths, a language, sciences etc. In fact a German University won't accept students for any subject without maths, a language and a science at Abitur (A levels)

trees - that is not quite the point. Very academic private and state grammar schools do have art, music etc but they will always recommend the pupils do say 3 traditional subjects plus art as the 4th or at elast of the traditionals. I did look earlier to see the exact A level combinations of Henrietta B per pupil but that was not on the website. I will try to look elsewhere.

On this other point " between sociology, English lit, psychology, modern history, classical studies ie ancient history" Of those I would recommend English lit, hsitory and then classical civilisation if that is offered (of those from which the daughter is choosing) or something along those lines.

Yes :

pick uni
pick degree subject
google to find website
check entry requirements for degree - sometimes you need to scroll down a bit to see any preferred A levels

This may help? www.informedchoices.ac.uk/which-degree

@xenia I think you're a bit out of date. My dd went to a very academic private school (top 10 nationally for both A Levels and GCSEs) and they weren't advised to pick 3 or even 2 'traditional' subjects/facilitating subjects. She then moved to a top grammar school for A Levels and again, there was no talk of facilitating subjects/ traditional academic subjects. I think your A Level experience dates back to before Gove's changes to exams in 2016?

May be. Which A levels did your daughter end up doing then?

Some recruiters are old as the hills however and what their parents did for A levels in the 1940s when my father was doing his and what they did in the 1980s might be their own, however ancient, bench mark!

And many aren't, or are, but can appreciate that the world is always changing.

And it is possible to choose subjects that you enjoy in the here and now and want to learn more about. Desirable even, as that's what's education should be about.

I doubt there are many recruiters that age now! Where I worked until a couple of years ago (big 4 accountancy firm) the recruiters would be no older than 40s, probably younger. They’re not even snobby about universities, let alone A Level subjects.

Dd did Psychology, History and Religion, Philosophy and Ethics. She wants to be a clinical psychologist- as far as I can tell from LinkedIn, universities are fairly irrelevant there too, as long as you get a first in your Psychology degree. A Level subjects are definitely irrelevant - I’ve been looking at the profiles of younger psychologists.

I really can’t imagine judging a 21 year old on the basis of what my dad did for A Levels in the 1960s 😂

Hahaha! Sociology is studied at Masters, DPhil, and beyond at Oxford University (and, I'm guessing, at other less prestigious institutions). Presumably these selective schools don't have such high expectations of their students.

Lol DDs selective grammar offers Media, Business Studies & Sociology.

I really can’t imagine judging a 21 year old on the basis of what my dad did for A Levels in the 1960s

Although it would appear that lots of people who claim that recruiters set such store by the A levels studied by applicants are perfectly happy that said recruiters should should not have been interested enough in that which they are judging them by to have educated themselves with regard to (or even been aware of?) the curriculum reforms of recent years.

I'm finding this thread fascinating. It strikes me that posters with a narrow background have no idea about the world outside their own experience. So thank you to the teachers, especially those who actually teach A level subjects for their point of view.

For context DD was a pretty good all rounder, but was veering towards STEM subjects. So she took 2 sciences and a humanities subject for A level and had just graduated with a STEM degree.

Her 6th form wasn't a large one and many of the subjects weren't offered because the demand wasn't there. Or rather, they were offered, but when only 3 students wanted to study drama, for example, they were told that they couldn't run the subject with so few students.

Medicine is a good example of choosing well to achieve excellent A level grades. After chemistry and biology most medical schools don't care what you choose for a third subject as long as you achieve at least an A in it. In fact HYMS prefer students who take a humanities or art subject for the third A level as it shows breadth of education.

A friend of mine started a job as a personal tutor in an FE college a couple of years ago. She had very traditional views about academic subjects at that point and had encouraged her kids down that route. When her tutees (who were studying extended BTECs) were putting in their UCAS forms she was very cynical about BTECs and very surprised that some of them were applying to RG universities. She didn't think they'd stand a chance! But to her surprise they got offers...

My ds is currently doing three despised subjects - Sociology, Business and Criminology (not even an A Level, but a level 3 diploma). His interests lie in business, or possibly the police. So far, all the potential degrees or degree apprenticeships I've looked at would be open to him, as long as he gets decent grades. This includes universities like Exeter or Warwick... Obviously he hasn't got the right subjects for Medicine, Pharmacy, Engineering etc but he knows that and isn't interested in those careers.

Further to @crazycrofter's post we have some very good friends whose DS1 went to Durham on a BTEC and proceeded to get a First. Universities are no longer sniffy about this form of qualification.

Those who think Business Studies is not worth doing – either at A level or a degree subject – are out of date and out of touch with current realities. It's absolutely fine if you want to go into, you know, business.

Or accounts and finance, marketing or law. And many others without subject requirements. .

Hi there lots of painful experience in this front over the recent few years and my younger children will have the benefit of my older children's experience! My DS had a few "crammer" interviews and the scales fell from our eyes when we met with the schools. This is what we found out:

• the idea of facilitating subjects is out of date.
• most people came to the crammers to drop chemistry and take something else; maths the most common retake
• economics is harder than business as it tends to be the more academic taking economics so the curve is skewed, business in the opposite way; biology and PE similarly but (again unless impacted by course requirements) they all have equal weight as A levels
• anything with coursework is a huge help. Yes the coursework is hard but it means come exams you already have a proportion of your grades in the bag so if you are unlucky enough to have 2 papers on the same day/train strikes stressing you out/horrendous hay fever/anxiety/beloved pet pass away etc etc at least 100% of your grade will not be impacted
• exam boards are not made equal in terms of structure. Some might suit your child more than others. Eg one science exam board has an essay at the end (will suit the writers) others don't; do not underestimate the difference this can make. Again so far as unis see it they are all "equal"
• also don't forget some a levels more complementary than others, for example maths and physics have overlapping sections of content, that really helps!
• the subjects you can best do in a year? None of them would be easy in a year but the "easier" - the bankers for a crammer where you just want those grades- business, geography, PE, politics, photography, art history and sociology

So my younger child will 100% be encouraged, indeed begged, by me to do at least one topic with coursework and at least one in list above. Hope that helps someone out there who is telling their child to please do three traditional subjects! Don't do it!

I'm amazed that you seemed to learn you can do sociology in a year. Its first year content alone is huge. Vast.But I guess crammers have lots of contact time. It's certainly a content type subject so can be crammed in in that sense.

This would be why there is increasing talk of changing the current A-level system so as to require students to carry on with a broader range of subjects for longer. Universities may not object to the variety, but the Government is not impressed with children giving up maths and English at 16. In France, they even insist on PE being part of the French baccalaureate, so the mark for that is included in the final baccalaureate result.

The government seems to have no plans to require students to carry on English beyond 16... to be honest, their plans are nothing to do with the idealisation of breadth over depth. They are to do with steering more and more young people into a narrower range of careers.

ps PP, plenty of the 'traditional' subjects have coursework.

Yes - geography, history, English literature.

I'm not sure it's so much 'a narrower range of careers' as that more careers require more numeracy nowadays. As does just living in and comprehending the world in the 21st century. The government idea is half baked and daft but wanting to tackle innumeracy isn't. However that's another thread or two!