Is Russell Group still the main event in University terms?

[Sportycustard]

DS is bright. He's Y12 in a selective 6th form doing A levels in computer science, music and maths. His GCSE grades in those subjects were 9,9,8. He's also achieved grade 7 in two instruments.

He's been looking at universities and has his heart set on doing a music production degree. He's in a band and produces all of their music so he does have some experience. He knows that the music industry is super competitive and we have zero contacts in it. He's also interested in TV production and sound engineering as possible careers.

All the courses DS wants to look at are at newer universities- ex polys in my day - and some were, I suspect, HE colleges. The A level requirements for the courses are low, typically BBC or less. His teachers think A*AB is a realistic prediction for A level grades.

I'm trying to sound encouraging but inside I am fearful that he is going to waste thousands of pounds on fees and end up with a degree that isn't respected at all and he should be aiming higher.

For context, DH has a good degree from an RG University and I have good degree from a red brick. We both graduated when tuition was free and DH graduated before loans were even a thing. We're ancient!

Are we hopelessly out of touch? Are there newer universities that are OK? Am I right to be concerned or do I need a head wobble?

The tonnmeister course at Guildford is incredibly highly respected and very hard to get into. Music industry know where to look for their talent, don’t worry about it being non RG. Lots of RG students then end up going to Conservatoire afterwards for a post grad and make their connections then.

In the arts, often different unis are more respected in industry- and these may not be unis that are traditionally widely respected. E.G. Goldsmiths is well known for having a really strong reputation for the arts, etc.

Equally, I know a few people who went to Falmouth- which is obviously a very new uni, and have done really well for themselves. They did build excellent portfolios, and had the ability to do internships/get work experience for free to get their first jobs, though. But they're now booked solidly for work and have niche skills in film and digital arts that put them in high demand. Their degrees definitely weren't a waste because they taught them skills which enabled them to impress whilst gaining work experience.

Ideally, he should try and talk to people in the industry and find out what routes they took to get to the jobs they've got. I would imagine he'll see a lot of "non-traditional" courses at "non-traditional" unis which are still widely respected in the industry.

There aren't that many people who can do things like sound engineering for film and TV- it is a specialist skill, so usually people with good skills and experience in these areas find it easy to find work. Yes, the industries are competitive in some ways, but if you develop skills in a specific niche, then often there won't be that many people who can do what you do!

A lot of these skills often can lead to other careers too. It's not quite the same, but a lot of marketing roles for smaller businesses/organisations now want people who can produce really slick marketing videos and images in house- so learning video editing skills etc is really useful. A lot of unis and colleges which run creative courses will often have audio-visual technicians in house, and equally a degree like music production would give him the option to teach music (in school, or self employed).

Anyway, my point is these degrees will actually give people a lot of useful skills, even if he doesn't go on to work specifically in, say, TV.

Personally, I think in Y12, you should at least take him to visit some of these unis for open days etc, and see how you feel coming away from them. You might end up really impressed, or he might end up changing his mind, but it would at least be a more informed choice.

Yes, this is the issue with going for traditional uni choices- if the lecturers don't have the same industry links, encourage people to get work placements, provide contacts for work experience etc, then it can actually be a less good option.

My impression is some of the smaller unis know their ability to get students hinges on their reputation to get students jobs in their specific field, so will really work hard to get students into the industry every year. But more "traditional" unis or larger unis have their wider reputation to trade on so may not be so focused on this.

Ideally, I'd want to be taught by someone with experience of working in the industry I wanted to go into and with lots of contacts still working in the industries.

Amen, @Postapocalypticcowgirl. A lot of the smaller/newer unis (former art schools/technical colleges/polytechnics) devote a lot of their courses to placements etc. Falmouth was on DD's longlist, but it's a leeeetle bit too far away from us (we're in the North-East!)

The trouble with the advice from a PP about applying to a Russell Group course is, I think, that you would be applying with a lot less hands-on experience in a niche area. It's by no means guaranteed that niche courses lead to a job in that field, but it's the only plausible way in. (It's similar to: Not all kids who start gymnastics at age 5 will become pro gymnasts, but all pro gymnasts will have started at age 5...) Having law/accountancy/etc as a "backup plan" really isn't on the radar of the DC who want to go into artistic/technical areas!

I think he will blight his life and should rethink his choices

You are wrong.

If he goes to a sub standard university with people who are not very bright and have low grades it will also change his university experience too - to be blunt.

To be blunt, I wouldn't listen advice from someone who writes this and us so obviously clueless about higher education and the graduate labour market as a whole.

Yes, you need a head wobble. Universities specialise in particular courses and he needs to research carefully.
for example, someone wishing to study forensics should seriously consider UCLan, it’s reputation in the subject is second to none. There will be another university with an equally excellent reputation for its music courses. Just need to look into it.

My DD was surrounded in sixth form by a group who were very high achieving. She got decent grades but didn't enjoy life or feel successful. Now she's at art school with the best and biggest group of friends she's ever had, creating art nearly every waking hour and learning new practical techniques every single week. So, yes, to be blunt, it has changed her university experience; immeasurably for the better!

Sorry @Xenia but on this occasion you are wrong. Both Music and Computer Science are highly regarded subjects at A level, so to say that this student is only studying one decent A level is untrue.

OP I have experience of students applying to the Tonmeister course at Surrey. 3 went a couple of years ago and are all loving the course and the opportunities it has offered them. However, all 3 offered Physics as well as Maths and Music.

The whole RG thing really annoys me. It's a self-selecting club. Exeter opened a medical school so it could be in that club, but nobody ever questioned why it shut its Chemistry or Music departments. My school used to bang on about how many students went on to RG destinations, but since the 3 went to the Surrey course, they now use the Sutton Trust 30 as a benchmark instead. One of my DDs went to Cambridge, the other to a non-RG institution. Do I care about the fact it is non-RG? Not at all. She has had a fantastic time and done things that her Cambridge-educated sister can only dream about.

they now use the Sutton Trust 30 as a benchmark instead

I noticed recently that a Grammar was using the categories; 1) Oxbridge, 2) Russell Group/Bath/Loughborough (to be said in one breath). Clearly they also felt the need to alter their approach because students were voting with their feet.

He's been looking at universities and has his heart set on doing a music production degree. He's in a band and produces all of their music so he does have some experience. He knows that the music industry is super competitive and we have zero contacts in it. He's also interested in TV production and sound engineering as possible careers.

So, he could look at the careers (via their websites) of people he admires, or companies where this work is done (again, websites) and so on. See if he can find where these people trained, or what courses they've done.

From my broad knowledge of the field, the course at Huddersfield is internationally rated for contemporary/electro-acoustic music; Salford for music production.

A degree will give him access to really excellent equipment and facilities - so he should be looking at these on campus visits. Also he should ask about what access graduates have after graduation - my place offers graduates the opportunity to use our facilities (through a managed booking process) for up to a year after graduation.

About getting work after: internships, placements, "gofer" work in the summer vacation, maybe a gap year just working as an office boy or runner? He'll need to think laterally - sometimes admin-type roles can give an excellent insight to the creative industries. It's also the sort of career where his extra-curricular activities will be useful. He'll need to be VERY proactive with the Careers Service, and pay attention to whatever events his Department puts on.

Diversion to rant about the idiocy of my students - we put on 'Employability' events on Wednesday afternoons (traditionally Wednesday afternoons are free of any scheduled teaching). We had someone speaking who is in the position of actually employing graduates in a really highly competitive field that is notoriously hard to get in to, who was prepared to look at CVs and give specific & tailored advice. You'd think such a speaker would be mobbed. Not one student turned up.

How frustrating @WindyHedges

Is it because it relies on students being proactive rather than being pushed?

Thank you for all the fantastic replies. There's so much I've learned from following up the suggestions of courses and things he can look up. Planning to visit a few cities and sign up for open days at Liverpool, Nottingham, confetti and Salford.

I've also learned a lot I didn't know about the Russell Group!!

@windyhedges I've seen this too! I mentor students from my old university. Quite often I don't get a match because not many students come forward. But when I do get a match I spend hours supporting them and giving advice. The last student I worked with probably had 20 hours of my time across the year, including reading applications and mock interviews. I helped her find some relevant volunteering and she ended up with a place on a very prestigious grad scheme because of the portfolio of work she provided from her volunteering.

They don't realise what they're missing out on!

What a great story @Sportycustard and what good work you do. I hope your mentee thanked you. I am also sometimes shocked at how ungrateful (or thoughtless) some of my undergrads are when I go way beyond my job, to help them (by putting them in touch with friends of mine who are influential people in the field they want to enter, or sending lots of information & references to students working on dissertations whom I don't supervise ...) . Not even an email acknowledging they've received the information.

I wonder whether they'd been taught basic good manners. Anyway, good luck to your DS navigating a very different type of university entry. I have family working in fields paralllel to music production - my advice at Open Days is for him to ask about:
access to studios & equipment after hours/weekends
ratio of studios etc to students enrolled (how difficult will it be to get into a studio?)
the kinds of assessments he'll do - he should be offered up to 50% practical assessments
what kinds of industry experts do they invite in to talk to the students or do one-off workshops/masterclasses

In terms of alumni employment, he can look at that, but in the creative sector, employment is not the straight line of 'milk round' interviews, into a graduate training scheme, then into entry level job etc. So what kind of Careers Service advice is there for 'non-conventional' graduates going into these portfolio careers?

@Xenia I realise you're talking specifically about music, but when you talk about "ex-polys" as "sub-standard unis with people who are not very bright" you're going to get a reaction.

My dd is studying design and has high A level grades (as do many of her uni friends) and could've got into most RG unis, but she wouldn't have ended up studying the subject/course that she loves and is talented at, as no RG unis run her course.

She's at NTU (certainly not "sub-standard") studying a design subject which is very much in demand in industry, and she loves everything about it - tutors are fantastic, course amazingly enjoyable, close industry contacts & placements and high employment post-degree, plus she loves the city.

Don't forget, music, art & design are based on talent rather than A level grades. Some students have both high grades & talent, some less high grades & talent. It doesn't matter at the end of the day.

It may be worth remembering that without these "ex-Polys" there would be a dramatically depleted design/creative industry in the UK...a bleak thought.

University of York (RG uni) has excellent course in film and tv production (BSc) and it covers sound production.
www.york.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/courses/bsc-film-television-production/

@Xenia

This is now debunked - no longer are there a list of facilitating subjects and anyway Music is highly regarded.

Traditional music degrees are different to music production too. My dd has a friend who went to an "ex poly" and now is working in music production having an amazing time travelling with a very high profile artist, he got the position due to connections at his "sub standard" university.

Ops son needs to follow his dreams

Chris Mason did journalism at the University of Central Lancashire, which used to be Preston Poly. He's now the BBC's political editor. Make of that what you will.

Sorry I know that's not necessarily relevant to the thread but I'm sick of the snobbery about former polys. The conversion was 30 years ago, get over it. I work in HE and it's not really a thing we think about any more.

@louderthan acccording to wikipedia

Chris Mason was an undergraduate at Christ's College, Cambridge, where he studied Geography, and participated in student newspapers, student radio and student television.[7] Mason started his career as a trainee in broadcast journalism at ITN in autumn 2001.[1][3][7] He gained a postgraduate diploma from City, University of London,[3][8] where he trained as a journalist.[7]