Is Russell Group still the main event in University terms?

[Sportycustard]

DS is bright. He's Y12 in a selective 6th form doing A levels in computer science, music and maths. His GCSE grades in those subjects were 9,9,8. He's also achieved grade 7 in two instruments.

He's been looking at universities and has his heart set on doing a music production degree. He's in a band and produces all of their music so he does have some experience. He knows that the music industry is super competitive and we have zero contacts in it. He's also interested in TV production and sound engineering as possible careers.

All the courses DS wants to look at are at newer universities- ex polys in my day - and some were, I suspect, HE colleges. The A level requirements for the courses are low, typically BBC or less. His teachers think A*AB is a realistic prediction for A level grades.

I'm trying to sound encouraging but inside I am fearful that he is going to waste thousands of pounds on fees and end up with a degree that isn't respected at all and he should be aiming higher.

For context, DH has a good degree from an RG University and I have good degree from a red brick. We both graduated when tuition was free and DH graduated before loans were even a thing. We're ancient!

Are we hopelessly out of touch? Are there newer universities that are OK? Am I right to be concerned or do I need a head wobble?

Russell Group/red bricks and plate glass unis now about equal, worth looking into where the research expertise in the subject he prefers lies

Don’t count on anything as a route to work in this field. A friend of DD who has this degree is still working in an M&S food hall 3 years later 😩 Competition is fierce.

Nick Hillman (director of the Higher Education Policy Institute) gave a speech to private school heads a couple of days ago. This is an excerpt:

First, don’t tell your pupils to put all their eggs in the Russell Group basket. There are lots of wonderful universities in the Russell Group – I am a governor of one and I have attended three Russell Group universities myself (although the Russell Group didn’t actually exist when I was an undergraduate, for it is nothing like as ancient as people tend to think, having been founded only in 1994). As a policy wonk, I know what a very useful purpose the Russell Group serves as the voice of research-intensive universities. But it is equally important not to put too much store on membership of a self-selecting club. This does not provide an objective measure of educational quality nor does it tell you very much about which university is best for any individual pupil.

When teachers tell me they want their students to go to a Russell Group institution, I like to ask them to list the 24 Russell Group members and they are often quite uncertain which institutions the list actually includes. St Andrews isn’t in it, for example. Bristol is in but Bath is not. Cardiff is in but Swansea isn’t. Liverpool is in but Lancaster is not.

If you want to know how random membership is, consider this story about Leicester University from David Willetts’s book A University Education:

"the Vice-Chancellor of Leicester University was invited to join the Russell Group when it was created but he did not think it would be right to join one specific mission group when he was representing all of Britain’s universities as president of Universities UK—little did he realise that membership of the Russell Group would become a shorthand for the quality of a university."

The lesson from all this for today in autumn 2022 is to spread the five Ucas applications across a range of options. Even if a student has high predicted grades, Mary’s advice is not to restrict yourself solely to Russell Group members but also to include a couple of non-Russell Group providers on the list.

If you are worried that this means your pupils could end up at a less prestigious university, just remember that one reason why Russell Group universities are so prestigious is that a high proportion of independent school pupils opt for them. In other words, these applicants are part of what provides the sheen and they could take their polish elsewhere.

www.hepi.ac.uk/2022/11/02/uk-undergraduate-admissions-the-outlook/

For music production you need to rip up the rule book and go somewhere that has good industry reputation and links.

My son is at Leeds Conservatoire (he moved away from Production to performance). His insurance was Salford. He didn't apply to LIPA, Huddersfield or Surry but I would recommend all of those institutions as they are world class in this field.

Birmingham Conservatoire also is another place to look at as they do a production degree in conjunction with BCU.

Back up choices but still good could be Solent & Falmouth. There is also RCS if he is ok with going to Scotland.

My dc is going down this route and we are sticking to RG to keep options open in case they decide it’s not for them and for example ends up wanting to go to law school. I am much happier with this than going down the specialist route. They’re also on track for good A level grades and I’m very reluctant that they don’t narrow their options

liverpool is current first choice - music and technology
Newcastle contemporary and popular music
Nottingham music and music tech
Sussex music tech
york music and sound recording

as back ups
leeds conservatoire music production
birmingham Conservatoire music tech

Ps I should add, I know Sussex isn’t RG. It’s a traditional uni though

we are sticking to RG to keep options open in case they decide it’s not for them and for example ends up wanting to go to law school.

I do know a barrister whose degree was from Birmingham Conservatoire.

Thank you for this. Really helpful suggestions. The Nottingham course is really interesting and he likes Nottingham as a city - his sister is in her 3rd year there

Friend’s son went to Leeds (Conservatoire rather than Uni of, I think) & has worked with some very well know bands since graduation. I can’t imagine Russell Group being important in that industry.

My DD is at an art school (which happed to grow into a poly and then a uni, but the art-school is still at its core). She's on a vocational illustration course with placement year. The league tables are rubbish for small, specialised, vocational courses, as they mush lots of subjects together; you want to look at satisfaction ratings and employment figures on a course-by-course basis at "discoveruni.gov.uk"

She wants to go into book illustration, and the course doesn't guarantee that by any means, but the main way publishers find new talent is uni competitions, placements, and degree shows. So it's very much "horses for courses." (I'm ex-Russell Group in very academic subjects, and it's an alien world to me, but it's the right thing for her.)

www.hepi.ac.uk/2022/08/20/its-time-to-talk-about-the-russell-group/

A perspective on Russell Group Universities from the website of the UK's only independent think tank devoted to higher education.

I go to a Russell Group. Now admittedly, I don't do music. However, my university do have music degrees etc. and it looks impressive to me. Though again, I'm not a musician.

I think he will blight his life and should rethink his choices. He is doing one traditional A level (maths) and most decent state grammars and private schools have children do at least two traditionals (facilitating subjects) but even so he should have a good chance of getting into somewhere good given his grades. If he goes to a sub standard university with people who are not very bright and have low grades it will also change his university experience too - to be blunt.

With A star, A, B grades likely he could go to a good highly ranked university eg to do a traditional music degree. With that he could apply to all kinds of careers once he realises his proposed career in music tech might be quite hard to advance - all those careers that take graduates form good places whatever their degree from accountancy, to law and consulting, banking etc, never mind he could do a PGCE after if he has a good music degree and become a school music teacher.

Completely bizarre assumptions in this post What on earth suggests that the DC has, or will ever have, even a vague interest in banking, law, accountancy or teaching when the OP clearly states his interests and experience lie in music production, sound engineering or TV production? And what makes you assume that anyone doing a music production course will be "not very bright" and have "low grades"?

Xenia is so off the mark it’s untrue.

The universities I mentioned are also not sub standard. Some are world class in this field.

By the way, please feel free to PM if you want to know where I am studying. Just don't want to be outing

With all due respect, music technology is quite niche, it’s a growing area of employment but industry contacts and tutors currently working in the industry are far more important than the things you look for in other degrees. It’s also a very different area to classical/general academic music.

you admit you are not studying music, there are several on this thread who have current knowledge of the sector.

have a look into Regent's University. small class sizes and best for connections.
teeside also good.
hull also up there with the best up and coming cities and uni

There is a successful, profitable, UK Music Industry with an array of roles available - Music tech and music production are facilitating subjects within the industry...

www.statista.com/statistics/321843/music-industry-income-in-the-uk/
www.ukmusic.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/UK_Music_Careers_Information_Pack_2020.pdf

There has never been a better time to choose a career in the music industry. It creates over 142,000 full-time jobs in hundreds of different roles and is growing all the time. Music is worth £4.4 billion to the UK economy and the Creative Industries currently employ 1 in every 11 people.

Uk Music Careers Information Pack 2020

It’s a difficult choice to make and there’s a lot of conflicting advice flying around. The general ‘rule of thumb’ is that you should try and go to the ‘best’ (highest ranking) university possible, which for your son would most likely be an RG uni.

However, that logic comes undone when the young person in question wants to do a degree that may not be offered at the ‘best universities’. Sometimes the ‘right’ choice may be a ‘worse’ university that has good industry connections and facilities (e.g Salford).

Having said that, Energetic Enoch’s DC choices look great so clearly there are some RG universities offering more vocational music technology / production degrees. A lot of it depends on what modules you pick as well, so I’d encourage your son to read the course content guide thoroughly.

I’m a Goldsmiths student and I noticed someone mentioned it earlier. I don’t do music, but it’s genuinely a lovely place to study. I have friends doing various music courses and I’ve never heard a bad word said about the department. And despite its lack of Russell Group status, it does have a good reputation for music.

However, I’d be wary of the newer music colleges such as BIMM, ICMP, ACM and LCCM. I apologise if this comes across as harsh, but quite frankly anyone who can sing or play an instrument can get into these institutions. They very much operate a ‘bums on seats’ approach and as a result often the teaching can be substandard. They are generally not well respected in the industry or academically speaking. Of course, plenty of successful musicians and producers went to these places, but many of them were likely to be successful anyway due to raw talent. Also another thing to note is that the ‘university experience’ is very different to any other traditional university. For example, I know that BIMM has no student halls so people are often spread out. Also there aren’t that many clubs / societies / sports if that’s important to him.

I think LIPA has a better reputation but I can’t say I know enough about it to comment. If he decides he really doesn’t want to go down the traditional university route I’d be strongly recommend he checks out the courses available at the conservatoires. Most of them generally have a great reputation but I’ve heard good things about Music Tech at The Royal Northern College of Music, Leeds Conservatoire, Birmingham Conservatoire and The Guildhall. He’d be surrounded by people equally as passionate about music as him, and would also have access to plenty of facilities which is a huge factor in Music Production.

Overall, I’d just say you need to trust your son to do what’s right for him. Often at open days you just sort of ‘know’ if it’s the right place for you. Reputation does matter, but only to a certain extent. If he’s driven, passionate and hardworking I’m sure he’ll do well wherever.