Is Russell Group still the main event in University terms?

[Sportycustard]

DS is bright. He's Y12 in a selective 6th form doing A levels in computer science, music and maths. His GCSE grades in those subjects were 9,9,8. He's also achieved grade 7 in two instruments.

He's been looking at universities and has his heart set on doing a music production degree. He's in a band and produces all of their music so he does have some experience. He knows that the music industry is super competitive and we have zero contacts in it. He's also interested in TV production and sound engineering as possible careers.

All the courses DS wants to look at are at newer universities- ex polys in my day - and some were, I suspect, HE colleges. The A level requirements for the courses are low, typically BBC or less. His teachers think A*AB is a realistic prediction for A level grades.

I'm trying to sound encouraging but inside I am fearful that he is going to waste thousands of pounds on fees and end up with a degree that isn't respected at all and he should be aiming higher.

For context, DH has a good degree from an RG University and I have good degree from a red brick. We both graduated when tuition was free and DH graduated before loans were even a thing. We're ancient!

Are we hopelessly out of touch? Are there newer universities that are OK? Am I right to be concerned or do I need a head wobble?

I don't think RG Universities are the be all and end all, and I'm a graduate of one so no sour grapes or anything. It depends so much on what you want to do. There are plenty of very good institutions that are not part of the RG - for example I can't imagine many future employers looking down on engineering graduates from Loughborough because they didn't attend an RG University.
And for some subjects, particularly those with more practical/technical content, some of the ex polys are excellent and have strong ties with the related industries. One of my friends studied textiles at Manchester Metropolitan for example, and a lot of people were quite scathing when she announced where she was going, but she now has a very well paid job with a high end fashion company. She's certainly got a more successful career than plenty of our classmates who went to prestigious institutions to study more mainstream academic subjects.
One of my sons has just started at a fairly small ex poly this year. He could probably have gone somewhere "better" to study the same general subject but the course structure at this particular place really suited him, the pastoral care is very good and there are opportunities to connect with industry in the specific field he is interested in, so we are happy that he is in the right place for him.
As with schools, different students will thrive in different institutions, and not always the ones that top the league tables etc. I'd say that it's important to consider the specifics of the course, the environment and the young person's particular talents, interests and personality. Whilst the RG Universities are without doubt very good, the big names are not necessarily the best for every subject or every student.

www.icmp.ac.uk

The idea that RG unis are the be all and end all needs to die an overdue death.

For your son, doing a degree that is practical and with industry expertise will probably serve him best

It just means it’s a vocational degree.

It doesn’t mean it’s shite.

Spend some time looking at careers in music production with him, and see what interests him and where opportunities are.

Speaking as someone who grew up in a boring middle class family in the sticks and now works in a branch of media production not in the sticks I can tell you most people don’t have contacts. Great if you do, obviously, but most people don’t.

The Tonnmeister (Music and Sound Recording) BA at Surrey is really good - has industry placements too.

Don't get hung up on RG. Fundamentally it's a made up group. Durham didn't join until
2012 and that's a pretty good uni. Look at the course, Look at it's TEF. Can your son live in the area for 3 or 4 years? He's looking at a pretty specialised degree. Oh and some of those former polys are starting to snap at the heels of those big old universities.

I was coming on to say this! It's a highly respected and prestigious course which requires high grades.
Students do placements at other institutions including the Royal Academy of Music.

Contacts can be made at the university or institute

Lecturers are often industry professionals
Placements and work experience / work-based learning
Access to state of the art equipment including studios to produce and co-produce music in, (and some places also have radio stations).
A university / institute music scene, and a local one, to tap into - and opportunities to perform in bands (and produce for them).
Students with their own studios, managers, and booking agents / deals to get to know and speak with.

Many prospective students look at the quality of the course, the modules, the opportunities, the links to industry, whether the lecturers are industry professionals, what the facilities are, what equipment there is and how accessible is it day-today for them to use, and the local music scene.

Successful students make opportunities happen for themselves, and put the hours in to earn their place in the industry - so check with your son what his position is on this and how motivated he plans to be.

There are opportunities all over the UK not just London. For example,
www.napier.ac.uk/courses/ba-hons-music-undergraduate-fulltime
Top UK modern university for Music (1st of 35 - The Guardian University Guide 2022, 1st of 43 - The Complete University Guide 2022, 1st of 41 - The Times Good University Guide 2021).

Hope this helps :) Worth doing your own research and looking at some of the courses on offer so you can talk with him about it in. more depth.

like the pp, I was also going to say the Leeds Conservatoire
What Uni reviews

Reputation is a funny thing. I work with a lot of Oxbridge/RG type people and when I told them my eldest was going to Goldsmiths they were very impressed. I was surprised but it seems it has a lot of kudos in the arts and that carries weight with people. Strangely my eldest now works with Oxbridge type people. Don't know if that helps.

Yes, this sprung to my mind too, but they do ask for Maths, Music and Physics.....

I looked at the Tonmeister course as I found it on another Mumsnet thread. They do insist on that combination and DS really won't swap computer science. He's a coding geek too and this may well be his backup plan if his music production dream doesn't fly

Thank you for sharing your experience. That's really reassuring.

www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings/arts-music-institutions
i have 2 friends with Dc at LIPA . One is doing music production have loving course

This is my concern. If the respected universities don't offer it does that say something about the subject?

No, it doesn't. You need to remember that the RG are a self selected research intensive universities. All universities are part of a mission group it's just that the RG have been particularly successful in their marketing! They aren't the be all and end all.
For vocational subjects you need to look at links with employers, opportunities for placements and graduate outcomes (employability) but look at a subject level rather than university level. Some specialist subjects sit with universities that might not feature highly in league tables but are really well respected by employers.

I went to a well regarded Russell group uni, the standard music degree there had a fair amount of music production if you opted for it. You could even do a dissertation-equivalent music production project instead of a written dissertation, I know a couple of people who went down this route. PM me if you like, and I'll give you the specifics.

I imagine several of the Russell groups would do similar. Is this an option for him? Yes it wouldn't be 100% music production, but he'd get a good well-rounded musical education too.

ACM in Guildford (have a London campus too)
British Institute of Music (BIM) London and Birmingham
Birmingham City do a great course too

I would definitely say RG is not really the thing for music production

Oh yes I agree with this - I hope my previous post didn't come across that I think it's particularly important to go to a Russell group, just that it could still be an option if it's important to him.

Goldsmiths has a fab reputation for example. Basically any of the conservatoires are a good starting point too. There's usually always non-RG I situations that are really well regarded for specific industries.

@Sportycustard Ah fair enough, I'd forgotten those were they A Levels they stipulate.

A family member did their Music degree at West London uni, used to be London College of Music. Also very good.

I wish we could move away from the narrative that all former polys are shit. There are hundreds of decent vocational degrees out there that result in highly paid careers. I did one. Not music but a degree that saw me walk into a fantastic career.
I'm in an RG uni social group who constantly take the piss out of my former poly and while a high percentage of the RG uni will go off and out earn 'us' (engineering, medics etc) I work with several RG graduates 3 grades lower than me in my organisation because the generic degree left them largely unskilled.

@Sportycustard my DS had just started a degree in a completely different field, not music related, it's vocational, but I had same concerns you have regarding calibre of uni until we went to visit and researched.
I went to a RG uni (but many, many years ago) and the quality of the facilities and calibre of the staff at DS's uni is incomparable. I was so impressed and so far, he is very happy and engaged.
It's obvious he's picked the right course for him and hopefully therefore, he'll be successful.
You might find visits to some of the unis very eye opening.
Whilst I don't know anything about music production, I am familiar with Media City and Salford Uni ( which had a good reputation) had strong links with Media City.

I used to work in HE and, honestly, I think MN boards obsess far too much about the Russell Group. There loads of really good Unis out there and for something niche like music production and new media, you will probably find that the younger Unis suit you better. A lot of the post-92 Unis realised that they couldn't compete with older Unis in the traditional subjects so they specialised into very specific industry-related areas (oil and gas engineering, computer game design, paramedic studies etc) Look for a course that boasts really good industry links with employers and, if possible, placement years or internship opportunities in the relevant field.

It totally depends what you want to study. My DD went to Loughborough which is the best place in the country for the subject she studied. We visited several RGs but their facilities and future employability was not a patch on L'bro. My

Sorry posted too soon. Other Dd has 2 friends who did music tech at ex polys. One now works for a Hollywood film production company and the other does light and sound in the west end!