Volume of International Students

[Gettingtooldforthis]

Apologies for name change, long term mumsnetter here.

We are evaluating Unis at the moment, I was interested in how many International students there are by Uni & found this:

www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/student-advice/where-to-study/international-students-at-uk-universities

Does anyone know if you can find out how this breaks down by course?

I'm sure the thread has moved on but can't quite get past And if there are, would it be much fun anyway, if virtually all the other students on the course are international?

Lots of DDs pals at uni were international students. I'm sure it would have been less fun if there had been few of them.

Such a bizarre, insular comment.

HESA published online stats

DD had international students as friends as well.
I wonder if the comment was because in some universities the students with a common language and culture tend to stick together more, and are shyer at integrating?

Would you prefer that unis close down? Because it is international students subsidising British students for many ( most?) courses.

@LobeliaBaggins not sure how that's relevant to my point. I'm saying amongst me and some other London friends, it can be difficult to break into these groups, it's not always some eye opening thing where everyone mixes equally. But it's understandable why you'd want to stay with people who you relate to.

Made no positive or negative comment and no idea how you jumped to closing down

Did you miss the bit where I said I had both taught large numbers of international undergrads and postgrads at British unis and also took an MA recently at a London uni (UCL in my case)?

While I'm happy to believe your ds's experience is different to mine, or to what I've seen at other unis, suggesting I must be 'rather out of touch' is simply incorrect. As you don't appear to study at any British uni currently or to have done so recently, I'm not quite sure what you base your assumptions on? Do you accompany your son in his social life?!

Certainly on my course, there were a few international students who were keen to mix socially with people from other countries, including British students. But the vast majority did not, realistically. As I said, it's completely understandable that after a day reading difficult academic texts in a foreign language, one might want to relax by chatting to others in one's first language. But had I been studying at undergrad rather than postgrad level, and wanted to socialise with my fellow students (I had no time to do this as a mature postgrad), I think I would have found it quite lonely, given about 90% of the students on my course were international.

As for language issues, obviously I wouldn't include Indians on the list of international students likely to struggle with the language, given it is a first language there. However I had many fellow students from China, Korea, the Middle East etc who did struggle hugely with English. This is why every uni has large and growing EAP / study skills departments, whose job is to help these students with their English. I know, because as I said, I've worked in them! I've taught students with shockingly bad English, where one could only surmise that there had been cheating on the English tests they'd used to apply. It was my job to try to get their English levels up to scratch.

So forgive me if I take your description of all these brilliant international scholars who all speak English better than the British do with a pinch of salt...

@BirdinaHedge

You keep claiming that 'Most universities I know well have separate quotas for domestic and international students' - no-one else on this thread says this, and I have never heard or read this anywhere else.

I would love this to be true, as I worry about whether there will be any places left for British students on the courses my ds wants to study, given how much lower uni fees are for British students.

Could you provide some evidence for this claim, please, to set my mind at rest?

as I worry about whether there will be any places left for British students on the courses my ds wants to study, given how much lower uni fees are for British students.

That is panic-mongering and quite ridiculous. There is no evidence anywhere that UK students will not be offered places in any undergraduate course anywhere in the UK.

If your DS meets the standard, and makes an effective UCAS application with a good thoughtful personal statement, and the required achieved GCSEs and A Level predictions, of course he has a chance of being offered a place!

Evidence? I've worked in UK universities, as well as those in two other countries, for over 30 years, including several stints as HoD and Admissions tutor.

Your post is bordering on the xenophobic.

Student numbers cap was removed researchprofessionalnews.com/rr-he-government-education-2020-8-department-for-education-scraps-student-number-cap/

The original 2013 change was the one I had remembered which I believe is what led to my son having double the home student numbers that were on the Bristol course his sister did 13 years beforehttps://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/undergraduate-numbers-cap-to-be-abolished-osborne/2009667.article

However the above are about removal of numbers limit for home students. I do not have information on how many international students are on that same course for example, now and 13 years before.

I found this
"Quick Summary

International students choose the UK as a study destination for a variety of reasons, such as its educational prestige, diversity, and career opportunities.

The total number of international students in the UK is 605,130.

The total number of EU students enrolled in UK higher education at the undergraduate level is 109,145.

There are currently 43,765 EU students enrolled in UK universities at the postgraduate level.

There are currently 205,695 non-EU undergraduate students in the UK.

The number of non-EU students enrolled in postgraduate level in the UK is 246,535.

Historical International Student Statistics in UK

The latest data shows that the total number of international students in the UK is 605,130.

In undergraduate enrollment, the number of international students has increased by 24.1% from 2016/17.

In the academic year 2016/17 a total of 197,155 international students enrolled in postgraduate studies in the UK.

A 13.08% increase in the international student enrolment at the postgraduate level occurred between 2019/20 and 2020/21."
erudera.com/statistics/uk/uk-international-student-statistics/

Accommodation is such a huge problem now in many areas it's a secondary concern.

You are the one who is 'ridiculous'. Unimpressed by your straw manning. Surely someone who claims to have worked in the university sector could argue a little bit more effectively than this?

My ds doesn't want to study 'any undergraduate course anywhere in the UK' (does any student?) - as I posted upthread, he wants to study Computer Science or Engineering, which are both courses that are very popular with international students, and I was asking specifically about the very top-ranking London unis. Not my fault if you haven't bothered to RTFT.

There will be a finite number of places, so I'd like to see the evidence that I assume @BirdinaHedge has, given she repeats asserting this as fact, which proves that even if a uni recruits large numbers of international students, this will have no impact on the numbers of UK-based students getting places. As I said, I'd love this to be true.

I'll wait...

Thanks, @Xenia

Even if the removal of the cap on student numbers now in theory included international students - though no-one has produced any evidence on this - there are presumably caps in practice on the numbers of students that can be enrolled on popular courses, in terms of teaching and room capacity, and indeed limits that we're seeing in terms of available accommodation, as @justasking111 has pointed out.

So I assume individual courses do have some limits on how many students they can take? But maybe this is not the case? Sure@BirdinaHedgewill be along shortly to present her evidence...

My dc has the only anglicised name on his course at a London uni, with most of the others being from countries such as China, Hong Kong, Singapore, and even those from the UK are from families that originate from similar countries. It's a highly ranked uni and a numerate subject.

He's only been there 3 weeks, but seems happy enough. I do find it curious - I suppose I always assumed UK universities had to provide a majority of places to UK students, but I guess not.

Does the relatively high ratio of international to domestic students in London unis also apply to medicine and dentistry? Because if it does, I could certainly see an argument for ring-fencing the majority of places for UK students who will use their degrees within the UK.

No. Quotas apply. There are relatively few medicine places for overseas students. They are extremely competitive.

bel, yest it was interesting comparing my son on the identical course at Bristol to his sister 13 years before after the 2013 home student cap on numbers was lifted for those with higher grades. One remaining limit in 2013 and now was space in lecture halls although even in 2017 my son could listen to all lectures in the afternoon after a long lie in bed if he wanted as each lecturer pressed record before starting speaking. However offering all students a place in halls in year 1 is a bit of a cap on numbers. I do think most of the other undergraduatese on the first degrees my 5 children did were home students by the way probably due to the nature of the course and that they were not in London (as we live in London all 5 wanted to study somewhere else for 3 years).

I posted this, from the LSE website, on another thread.

It looks like LSE aim for 50:50 home:overseas on each course.

Anecdotally (DCs school was a mix of day and boarding so a number of their friends were applying as overseas students) places for overseas students on sought after courses (Imperial engineering was one example) was more competitive.

As for "My dc has the only anglicised name on his course at a London uni" I noticed much the same thing when I saw DDs Yr 7 class list. I suspect Xenia will say the same. But then we are London Irish. London has always had waves of immigration and names reflect that. London students from some cultures tend not to leave home for University (in my day there was quite a strong representation of of London Jewish students at LSE, whilst DD noticed that several of the Jewish students she knew at Bristol would return home each week for the sabbath.) Whilst ethnic minority students from other parts of the UK are attracted by London's diversity.

Belmana, for someone who claims to have "both taught large numbers of international undergrads and postgrads at British unis", you seem to be surprisingly ill-infomed about how universities are funded.

Sorry. For some reason the cut and paste did not work.

1. Admissions and registration targets

The number of student places at the School is determined through the School’s capacity to teach them. The School meets this requirement by setting caps on the number of Home and Overseas students on each programme of study. This system therefore involves two selection processes for each programme (i.e. one for Home students, and another for Overseas students) although it is important to note that the entry requirements are the same for both groups of applicants. The number of undergraduate places available each year at LSE for Home students is usually approximately 850. The number of undergraduate places available each year to Overseas students is usually approximately 850. LSE receives many more applications from highly qualified candidates than there are places available. In 2021 approximately 26,000 applications were received. The level of competition for places is intense, and therefore, the School is unable to make offers to many of these highly qualified candidates.

source: info.lse.ac.uk/staff/services/Policies-and-procedures/Assets/Documents/uGAdmPol.pdf

So do please enlighten me!

Though slightly unclear what this has to do with the topic of the thread? And confused why you think someone working in EAP / Study Skills support ought to be an expert in university finance?

And in my experience, international students work harder, are more attentive, learn better (and are more eager to learn) than many domestic undergrads. They are usually resourceful, wonderful people,

As opposed to us knuckle dragging oiks and our offspring right?

Honestly fascinates me how much so many from the UK seem to despise it and it's people. Do you suppose that German, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Polish, Dutch peoples feel this way about their own countries?

We are turning into a weak, self hating, apathetic nation. Eating ourselves from the inside.

Thanks - would be interesting to know the proportion who are international students versus those who are British (which as you correctly point out, the names alone won't reveal).

My ds is from an immigrant background himself and used to mixing in ethnically diverse groups, so that's not what's worrying me; on the contrary, I think he'd be much happier in an ethnically diverse setting than a totally white monocultural one. In fact, it's one of the reasons London unis appeal to him, even though we live on the edge of London.

I do worry about whether he is trying to compete for places with people paying twice as much, who may then be looked on more favourably in the competition for scarce places than British students (whatever their ethnicity). And I also worry about whether he would enjoy an environment that was mainly full of international students, who from my experience are less likely to socialise with British students and who also (again, just my experience, but have read this elsewhere re accommodation) tend to be much richer than your average British student (unsurprising, given how much the fees cost).

Just to clarify to the terminally stupid on this thread - I am not discussing whether ethnically diverse unis are a good thing or not. Plenty of British students are also ethnically diverse, and assuming my son is not from an ethnic minority just because he is British is frankly revealing only your own unconscious racism.

This thread is not asking how many ethnic minority students attend particular British unis in the hope of finding a naice 'white' uni. It is asking what it says, namely how many international students attend London unis - in the hope that British students (whatever their ethnicity) can still achieve places despite paying fees that are under half as much, at a time when unis are very strapped for cash.

Please stop conflating 'ethnic minority' with 'international' and 'British' with 'white' - it is now getting really annoying. 😡

Well said, there is a horrible Orientalism about this - a kind of 'noble savage' view of foreign students which I find disturbingly racist in its undertones.

Thank you! That is reassuring. Though only LSE, so would be good to see some others too. 🙂

@LondonWolf and @belmama you have both misinterpreted the op's question and the tone of the answers. Absolutely nothing wrong with noticing or even wondering about and discussing the origins of people on a uni course. To assume that makes people racist is just thick.