Predicted grade disapointment - how does that affect applications?

[landyland]

My dc has been trying to get their predicted grades up from BBB to ABB as this gives more scope for uni applications - A for the subject they want to study (Business). The school won't budge and are sticking at BBB, despite recent assessments coming in in the 70-80% range. I feel they might be being a bit over-cautious due to recent controversy (private school) and they are capable of getting ABB.

Should we only apply to universities that state BBB or below? Would an application to a uni that states ABB be a completely wasted slot, given it's going to be a hard year for university applications? And given that his reference will, presumably, say that he is close to the B/A border for 2 subjects, including Business A level?

And advice welcome as he is feeling very demoralised and thinks that he won't get any offers now.

The RG universities still give a better on fees and loans as their grads earn more overall. (IFS report) Some students earn a lot more if they are RG (eg economics) and even these universities have a pecking order! If courses are competitive, employers tend to know that. They often don’t care too much if DC studied the lesser known works of Blog. They want your skills. In DDs job, hardly anyone is not RG and a sizeable minority are Oxbridge. University does matter. So does course. 17 year olds often don’t realise this. Someone with a first from a low ranking university certainly won’t be considered superior to a 2:1 from a top university and frequently employer tests bear that out. They take the grads from the best universities. However there are great subjects offered at lower ranking universities but these are often vocational.

Averages really don't matter to individual families I'm afraid and earnings aren't the sole measure of health or success that people want for their children. It doesnt matter that the average <top 10 ranked uni> graduate earns more than the average <bottom 10 ranked uni> graduate on average. What matters is that it's perfectly possible to earn a lot of money and/or be happy and successful as a graduate of either (or neither).

It's telling that you talk in terms of superiority. I don't consider the local man who owns a waste management company and is much wealthier than I will ever be to be superior to me, nor my friends who work at hedge funds or as pension fund managers, or one who is a KC. Similarly, I don't consider the nurse that treated my children, or the teachers that teach them to be inferior, and I have 2 RG uni degrees.

Some people would also rather work at start ups, or start their own businesses, than work at the superior places like investment banks and magic circle law firms that you are referring to that only look at Oxbridge/RG graduates (which they can't blatantly do anymore). I've worked at some of those places and seen people driven to suicide there. Medicine is another one that puzzles me. So prestigious at sixth form amongst the parents but the reality, as we see on here frequently, and as anyone that has worked in the NHS will attest to, can be very different.

Such a minefield.
Some of the 'best' universities I hope don't just gain this status through being part of a club.
My ds has only made 3 choices so far and one is Russell Group, another a non Russell group favourite and then his non-Russell group favourite [which is also an ex poly].
He is back at school tomorrow and going to chat to his tutor about his personal statement so choices may come up.
I went to a 'good' university and have been thoroughly, financially and status wise, unsuccessful! [My meandering poor choices really!] He is putting far more effort into researching his course of choice than I ever did...

I work in one of the professions in a role right at the top. I went to a non RG university (and a state comp).

DS is currently doing his ucas form and decided at the last minute not to make a Cambridge application. He wants to go into the same profession. Three of his choices are RG, two are not RG. RG is not the be all and end all.

@Trustylion
I wouldn’t bother with university at all for some of the entrepreneurial work you tell about. What’s the point of you have flair for waste management? And the ability to borrow money to set up a company from scratch?

The idea that all universities are the same is utterly ridiculous. Why should the country pay for degrees so the Dc just do very little regarding work that benefits anyone? It’s interesting how much people are prepared to take without wanting to contribute for future generations to do the same. We actually need grads in this country with well paid jobs to drive the economy. Just doing a bit of this and a bit of that is a luxury.

Few Cambridge bound Dc look at non RG. 17 year olds rarely know everything about jobs and work or even the best universities. Don’t tell me he’s applied for Law @Era. Dc need guidance. University does matter for some professions. Maybe not yours though.

In an ideal world we would reduce the number of universities. They should revert back to colleges of HE and offer work based qualifications only: lots of their students should be in work such as apprenticeships.

That's the point, these people didn't go to university and aren't inferior as a result.

If you want to get a graduate job at one of a very few corporate law firms or investment banks, fair enough, you probably do need a degree from a recognised name university. The point is that many, many people can see very good options outwith that and also the downsides of those kind of jobs.

And the country isn't paying for degrees, the parents and students are! Nicely illustrating the out of date ideas I'm talking about there 🤣

One of the reasons ds disappointed in some universities is the contact hours/ lack of them.
He is likely [unless something goes wrong] to get an A star in his chosen subject- been very consistent in that subject. His A star EPQ is also linked to his subject.
I wonder if some of the well-known universities he has been less impressed with- who would expect high grades- just don't see the need to make the effort or sell themselves.
Thus being blown away by a university asking for BBB...

ds wants 'time' from the university for his money [debt].
I will get him to explore further and if he gets offers he can go to offer holder days.
Some of the RG universities offered very few contact hours for his subject and he felt seemed dry in approach.
He is 17 though and although I want him to trust his gut it needs to be an informed choice.

Few Cambridge bound Dc look at non RG. 17 year olds rarely know everything about jobs and work or even the best universities. Don’t tell me he’s applied for Law @Era. Dc need guidance. University does matter for some professions. Maybe not yours though.

Are you really saying @TizerorFizz that those who apply to Cambridge don't aslo apply to the universities of Edinburgh, St Andrews and Bath to name a few non-RG universities.

Why shouldn't someone have applied to study law?
I can tell you of plenty of examples of very successful lawyers who didn't go to RG universities, shall we start with my partner who went to a distinctly non RG university and yet has worked as a lawyer in the City of London?

Edinburgh is a RG uni but yes, St Andrews, ranked second overall after Oxford in the Times 2023 in University rankings, and aged of Cambridge and Bath, ranked best university 2023 overall by the Times, are not! As you said, not the end all and be all. Especially as many RG lecturers are more concerned with their research and postgraduate students to keep them high in the world rankings than teaching pesky undergraduates ime.

Few Cambridge bound Dc look at non RG. 17 year olds rarely know everything about jobs and work or even the best universities. Don’t tell me he’s applied for Law @Era. Dc need guidance. University does matter for some professions. Maybe not yours though.

I responded, decided to bite my tongue and then changed my mind again. My DCs ability to become a lawyer is not going to be hindered by the fact that he’s putting Lancaster and St. Andrews on his ucas form. Neither are Russell group. Both are excellent universities. The fact that your dd is a junior barrister does not make you the resident MN expert. And quite honestly comments like “don’t tell me he’s applied for law Era” and “maybe not yours though” are never going to be helpful, they’re just passive aggressive mean girl shit.

@jgw1
Thats a bit pedantic! No. Obviously not. But the post was written to make the reader assume the Dc was happy with a couple of ex polys and Cambridge. Hence my over simplified answer. However I still stand by the statement, and research by others, that RG leads to better salaries but subject is important too. With the usual caveats of Lancaster, Bath etc.

Just to let you know, Edinburgh is RG. Plus loads of lawyers went to City. It’s somewhat niche in that field. It also trains barristers unlike the vast majority of universities.

@TizerorFizz its not pedantic to be factually accurate. (accepting I misremembered that Edinburgh is RG).
RG is a club of research intensive universities that has morphed into a very poor proxy for quality of undergraduate teaching and student experience.

Far better for students to research and think about which courses at which universities would actually suit them best.

Go for three BBB, one BBC and one ABB. You don’t want to run the risk of your ds thinking he’ll definitely get ABB, run his MH to the ground in the run up to exams and come out with BCC or something. Encourage him to have plenty of options, visit different universities and see the positives in the different ones.

I absolutely never said dc was applying to ex polytechnics. I said he was applying to two universities that were not Russell Group. FGS you have a weird compulsion to be the font of all knowledge about law just because your daughter is a very junior barrister. It’s quite frankly bizarre and a little sad. You’re not even a lawyer yourself!

Anyway this is derailing the Ops thread which isn’t even about law.

And, would ex-polys be so bad? Some very good ones out there I understand...

Bath, Surrey, and Warwick ex-polytechnics for example! [1960s conversion].

I know of a perfectly successful lawyer whose first degree was from what used to be a Welsh mining college.

Where you degree is from is of little relevance, the skills you have are much more important.

@DinkyDaisyNot one of those three were former polytechnics! There’s a complete list on Wikipedia if you are interested. @jgw1 Sadly for you, all research shows university matters. That’s why the top universities are doing so much outreach to get wider participation regarding applications. If it didn’t matter, why bother? It matters. One anecdote doesn’t stack up against stats. They clearly show there is an earnings premium for RG students and especially for some degrees. That isn’t to say former polys don’t have great courses. It’s also well known Bath, Lancaster and St Andrew’s are upmarket in terms of grad salaries. You cannot compare them with former colleges of HE.

Where is this research?

And any research will be averaged - nothing to stop individual high achievers from any uni.

I know a KC that went to the University of Huddersfield. I also know one that went to LSE. There is little differences in there careers or earnings today (in their fifties).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_date_of_foundation

For those interested wiki link to the foundation of universities in the UK.

For the stats that you refer to to be meaningful, (any chance of a link) then they would have to exclude all other factors that could have an impact. Do they for instance compare students with the same A-level grades, because it may be that that is determining earning potential not the university they went to.

Is this information available anywhere else please? It’d be so useful to know for a couple of my DDs courses. School are telling her not to apply as they think they won’t give her the alternative lower offer as suggested on their website.

@NotDonna you will see I have sent you a long PM.

Worth saying to everyone read really carefully what universities say the entry requirements are.

Bath say "If you receive an offer for this course and are studying one of these qualifications you will be given both the typical and alternative offer."

Whereas York say
"Meeting the following additional criteria may qualify you for an alternative offer."

The difference between WILL and MAY is significant.