"settling" for a uni course- yikes

[piggyinthemiddl]

DS is about to start university this September but I feel he has ‘settled’ for this course rather than looking forward enthusiastically. I feel guilty that I may have had a role to play in it.

Here’s the back story: DS enjoys sciences, is great with people and has volunteered in various care settings. He was struggling to choose between medicine and natural sciences (physics) throughout is A Levels.
He decided to do medicine, scored 3200 on UCAT, and then a few days before the UCAS deadline was up, decided that he’d rather do natural sciences. Abstract problem solving is funner, he said. I panicked, worried at this last-minute change of heart, but did not discourage him as I felt if he wasn’t 100% sure about medicine he should probably not do it.
In the end he ended up applying for 4 natural science places and 1 medicine place (based on a natural science physics personal statement).
I didn't discourage this.

The first huge disappointment was when Cambridge pooled but rejected his application.
He was gutted as he thought highly of the course.
He was offered places in the other natsci courses.
Was interviewed for medicine, rejected and then put on a reserve list with the university saying that they’ll let him know on results day whether he can get a place.
As we approached results day, there were these conversations about how medicine was indeed a great career and he may accept the place if offered. But he wasn’t offered a place and has decided to enrol in the natsci degree.
He has been subdued and quiet ever since the Cambridge rejection.
He does not want to reapply (too much effort) and does not really want to talk about the offers or his decision.
Oh and he scored 4 A*s in further maths, maths, chemistry and physics.
I feel he has ‘settled’ and has lost his umph a bit.
Afraid to talk to him about it as I might just introduce uncertainty when he has already enrolled at Bath and sorted accommodation.
In any case, I’m not sure what he’d want to reapply for if he did reapply. I just hope he won’t end up being disllusioed with his chosen course. Perhaps I should have steadied him when he wobbled over medicine.

Of course if he learns more about himself and discovers that his passion is Mech Eng or Physics, that is equally wonderful. The big danger of applying before you know what you want - and every experienced academic has seen countless examples - is that it is more often than not a real struggle to engage, both academically and socially. You don’t achieve what you are capable of. Establishing the very competitive career your DS wants is then difficult to impossible.

This. Indeed, everything @poetryandwine says. I work in the humanities, in a top-ranked RG university, and my experience - and advice - are the same.

Thank you. You are correct. He is not clear within himself whether he wants to do engineering or physics. All he knows is that he would like something mathsy, problem solving oriented. I don't think a few more weeks or months is going to make things any clearer for him. and oxbridge applications are due October 15. He did economics A Levels and got an A* at AS level. He really likes it but feels that a physics/computer science/statistics base is far better for advanced economics than pure economics undergrad degree. Put differently, economics is something he can pick up at post-graduate level if interested, as long as he has a strong statistics/maths background.

sorry to add- so apparently advanced economics/finance uses machine learning techniques and modelling beyond standard stats. These tools are better taught in non-pure economics courses apparently. The question is whether Bath will give him what he wants at undergrad level. Not too much time left now though. Need to decide before student finance sends in fees.

I would worry more about him doing medicine when he wanted to do science than the other way round. Very glad you didn't encourage him to do medicine for (basically) the kudos. Rather than "losing his umph" it may just be that the reality is a bit overwhelming.

Yes, he could reapply next year if he desperately wanted to study medicine, or go to Cambridge, but it doesn't sound as if he does. He has a place at Bath. Very good university, nice place.

Your husband should get out of his flap. No wonder your DS can't make his mind up when the two of you get in a state so easily.

Maths skills don't wane that quickly, and in reality university couses are never exactly what you expected them to be, and students change courses and directions all the time. In a year your DS will be more mature and confident. He can take a year out, or not, it really doesn't matter which as long as it is his decision not yours and your husband's anxieties.

the panic/anxiety is due to the stress his father is causing, saying his flitting from subject to subject merely wastes time and he needs to move out by October, university or not.

Tell your DH to get a grip.

All this pressure about "top school" this and that. Bath is a decent option. NatSci is a decent option. What would make things clearer for DS is if you and your DH back off and stop insisting he has to leave home and suggesting things and piling on pressure for him to decide and choose the perfect course and get everything perfectly right. Whatever he does is likely to turn out OK.

the panic/anxiety is due to the stress his father is causing, saying his flitting from subject to subject merely wastes time and he needs to move out by October, university or not.

As PP upthread have said, he is NOT "flitting." Everything he's interested in is maths & problem-solving based. That is the bedrock of his interests.

Knowledge is knowledge. The name of the degree is less important than the ways that bodies of knowledge intersect. In the modern university, we - STEMM and HASS - are all busting our guts to get knowledge out of these silos.

NB: Medicine is far less science-y than a pure Maths or an Engineering degree.

Hi, again OP -

Does your DS have an idea of what terminal degree he wants? In other words, does he see himself getting a BSc or M(Something) now, with perhaps a conversion type of Master’s degree in Economics later, or does he foresee the possibility of an Economics PhD? I hasten to add that of course at this stage all such plans are tentative.

The reason I am asking is that I don’t understand his thinking. It is true that the world’s most selective Econ PhD programmes are highly mathematical. Successful American applicants will have taken lots of Maths beyond what is required for their Econ degrees, and my sense is that successful applicants from the UK and elsewhere will mostly have come from highly mathematical UG programmes. Some selective PhD or integrated MRes/PhD programmes say they will consider on an individual basis applications from those with ‘other quantitative degrees’ but TBH they don’t sound overly enthused about this. I would think some grounding in a subject necessary to begin a PhD, and yes, I have a good appreciation of where the maths/stats/coding etc fits into this when I say I don’t see it sufficing.

The bigger factor is that students generally do best when they do what they love.

In the UK it looks to me like a Joint Hons degree in Maths and Economics could fit the interests of your DS. Within the Maths component he could do some coding, etc. To focus on coding and machine learning if the goal is a higher degree in Economics is truly to put the cart before the horse.

If his dream is to go into the City, it is true that many of the ‘quants’ are recruited from the ranks of top performing STEM students at certain universities each year. But generally they are top performing because they have been enjoying their work. I don’t honestly have a sense of how many of them begin their studies with this goal in mind. Top Economics students are also highly valued.

IMO your DS needs to think this through. If he misses the Oxbridge deadline, he misses the Oxbridge deadline. He isn’t going to be able to show the intellectual coherence for a successful interview until he’s had the chance to do the thinking in a relaxed manner, anyway. Warwick, Imperial, LSE and UCL are right up there with Cambridge in Econ (in the eyes of employers and PG programmes) and per my earlier comment he needs a safe insurance choice anyway.

I’m really not trying to push your DS out of STEM! We need all the strong STEM students we can get. But it sounds to me that his intellectual interest is elsewhere and I don’t understand why he is resisting it when he could succeed on a straightforward path

Why doesn't he consider just doing maths? This will give him 3/4 years to decide where he wants to go with it.

Hi, @carben I also wondered this, but I think the DS is intelligent enough to have realised that he likes other things better.

I get that. But the only thing he seems sure of is that he enjoys maths and solving problems. A maths degree opens a lot of doors - not to mention a lot of different trajectories and would give him breathing space. He sounds terrified of making a mistake and is almost paralysed by it.

A strong maths degree would probably take him wherever he wants to go post-grad.

There is a new degree at Imperial- something like Economics, Finance and Data Science (business school) which looks exciting. It will be competitive to get onto but might suit his interests well. They also do Bioengineering degrees - mixture of science and engineering (nanotechnology etc).

Just wanted to say that I think your son is being wise and brave in reapplying. He knew the course was not right for him and has decided to reject the easy option, even in the face of family opposition. He’s obviously incredibly intelligent and I’m sure will go far once he finds out what’s right for him.

If his dream is to go into the City, it is true that many of the ‘quants’ are recruited from the ranks of top performing STEM students at certain universities each year. But generally they are top performing because they have been enjoying their work. I don’t honestly have a sense of how many of them begin their studies with this goal in mind.

I know lots of Imperial graduates who get high paying job offers from finance companies. Unfortunately engineering companies often don't pay as much. So you're right that many stem graduates get lured into Finance by high pay offers.

@hop321 I should have also added - what exactly are these larger firms? I'm embarrassed by my own ignorance

Sorry, name change so didn't see this.

The big accountancy firms are PwC, EY, KPMG and Deloittes. All of the summer student programs are on their websites. They also have consultancy arms.

The largest consultancy firms are McKinsey, Bain & BCG although there's plenty of big firms not on that list,

Some of the large investment banks include Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley, but again, there's lots of other banks if you Google them.

My son still feels that rejection from Oxford - he is going to Warwick (turned down St Andrews) and is happy with that. I said to him there’s always a chance for post grad if he’s interested then. He got 3 A*’s but I guess they didn’t feel his statement was good enough.

If he’s still stung by the rejection it’s probably a good thing anyway. You need very thick skin to survive oxbridge, the process there is very much to hammer students into shape. The best feedback I ever got on one of my essays was ‘ok’ next to a paragraph and I was overjoyed to get that ‘ok’. The workload is predictably high, but what I wasn’t anticipating was the constant emphasis on what could be improved without the balance of what I had done well, as it was in school. You get no praise. Nothing you do is ever good enough. There’s a reason for it, but those that found rejection hard really struggled mentally.

I know it is a stressful time, but you sound a little too invested.
Either direction is good for him, but you have to rein in your enthusiasm.
You may find that is why he has stopped discussing the subject with you.
Yes a career in medicine is well paid, has high status, is also very stressful and can lead to an imbalanced work/life - at least in the early years.
Physics is an incredible subject and can lead also to high earnings, hugely interesting work, but much less stress than being a doctor.
Physics graduates can work in the semiconductor or computer industry, energy, aerospace, research such as particle physics- some very cool jobs.
Step back OP, let your son steer his life right now.
There are no bad choices here- whichever he chooses is good.

just an update for everyone who took the time to reply. DS reapplied to Oxbridge (very last minute) and was offered a place! thanks to everyone who took the time to reply.

What is he studying in the end?
(poor you, what a rollercoaster!)

Computer Science in the end. What a roller coaster!

@piggyinthemiddl Many congratulations - computer science is such a competitive subject - that's amazing - he has clearly found his direction and I'm sure will flourish... hope you can come off the roller coaster ride now ...

If I were him, I would take a gap year, travel, then reapply to Cambridge with his 4 A*s.

Sorry didn't see the original post was so old. Glad your son is happy!

That’s fantatic OP! What a relief! And what a fantastic course to do.

I read all this with a great deal of interest as my son is super good at exams but also an ‘all rounder’, directionless and indecisive, always wamts someone else to tell him what to do, and I’m not looking forward to when he has to start making big decisions 🙈

Congratulations! Very well done to him for going for what he wants (and not necessarily taking the easier route that many suggested). Was heartened to read this.