Engineering - Sheffield Uni for Sept or reapply to Cambridge?

[niceduvet]

My DS was rejected after interview stage for Engineering at Cambridge for 2022 entry. Last week he found out he had achieved 4 x A* for his A' levels which was what he was predicted so he's very chuffed. His next choice after Cambridge was an Integrated Masters at Sheffield Uni - where he now has a place for this Sept. He's spent most of the summer hols on a voluntary mechanics placement abroad.

A friend (who has a child who went to Oxbridge) has recently commented that she really can't understand why he isn't taking a gap year and reapplying to Cambridge for 2023 entry due to his results. We haven't encouraged this so far as we're concerned that it would be demotivating if he didn't get in again and he'd have to sort out a productive gap year at short notice and study hard again for the entrance exam (which is what he fell down on last time we think by getting an average score). Obvs there are no guarantees but I'm now wondering if maybe she's got a point. DS would probably take a steer from us on this. He was disappointed about Cambridge and is fine about going to Sheffield.

I guess I could understand more if it was politics or law or something else, but do employers really care where you got your Engineering degree from and would a Cambridge Eng degree really give you enough of an advantage to be worth reapplying for? Sheffield does seem like a powerhouse for Engineering and is well regarded.

I know this is a nice problem to have, but would really appreciated some advice here as accommodation deadlines are now looming. Thanks!

Not sure what you mean ... maybe there's a specific accreditation mech engineers can get but IET accreditation is what electrical&electronic engineers get, they don't have a specific institution.

@Daftasabroom
Are you a Chartered Engineer? DH is FICE, FIStructE. A general engineer from a course not accredited by ICE or IStructE would have limited appeal in his medium sized consultancy. They simply would not have the detailed projects and learning that’s necessary.

I can assure you hundreds of consulting engineers take engineers who are going to get qualified in their specialism. Large companies that do R&D might well do what you say but a consulting civil engineering practice has no use for electronics engineers. In the same way, consulting mechanical engineers won’t have much use for structural engineers. Of course big companies might have a mix, but plenty are smaller and do not.

The syllabus is not the same for all disciplines of engineering. Eg Bristol aerospace MEng shares one year out of 4 with other disciplines. Civil and Structural engineering at Sheffield studies structural engineering, water infrastructure engineering, fluid mechanics, and geotechnical mechanics. The words overlap but the problems to be solved are very different. A course that’s not accredited by the major institutions is not the same as a course with a specific major area of engineering. It’s misleading to say it is and the accreditation says otherwise too. That’s fine, as long as that’s understood.

Thanks TizerorFizz - that's helpful. After gaining a sufficient amount of on the job experience, wouldn't a General Engineer make a good project manager though - managing a team of different engineering specialists? As a Gen Engineer would have a good overview of all the disciplines.

... as projects become more and more interdisciplinary as technology advances.

Always remember reading these threads that the plural of anecdote is not data!

One person who went to oxbridge who isn't good at real life problem solving doesn't mean they all are like that - and while the ability to do 'hard maths' does not confer this ability, obviously neither does it preclude it, which is sometimes seemed to be implied

Verifiable facts -
Engineers trained at Sheffield are highly employable.
Engineers who've done general engineering are highly employable.
Engineers who've specialised from the off are highly employable.
A significant minority of Cambridge engineering grad go into 'the city' but a larger proportion do actually become engineers... and they're all highly employable.

Sometimes parents get worried because they see plaudits for one university/type of course... but that doesn't mean there is therefore anything wrong with the alternative that their DC is doing! So long as the DC either wants to be an engineer, or is undecided but likely to go into a numerate or problem solving career, there's pretty much no really wrong answer.

That does seem to be what some of them do, and some (maybe all?) general engineering courses will have options geared towards that sort of career.

Re accreditation and general engineering- if it's not clear on the website then probably best to contact admissions tutors and grill them. Things may well have changed in the last 5 years; back then DD was only convinced by Cambridge re 'generalise then specialise'. To get accreditation as an Electrical&Electronics engineer required choosing from a relevant subset of options in the last 2 years. Various of her friends got different accreditations.

100% Sheffield. It looks to be a great course, and it’s a good uni for engineering.
If I were him, I’d go for it. There’s no saying he’d even get into Cambridge if he waited and reapplied. Not meaning that against him at all, he’s clearly a bright lad! But with his skills, his drive and a good uni like Sheffield he will do well.

As a side point, I’m an engineer working with one of the big name consultancies, and where you get your degree is not priority in applicants for jobs. I went to one of those ‘former polytech’s’ that people look down on…didn’t stop me getting the job with the company I wanted! As an engineer, your skills do the speaking.

There’s no saying he’d even get into Cambridge if he waited and reapplied. Not meaning that against him at all, he’s clearly a bright lad!

Tbh in the context of this thread it's worth remembering that for any applicant, the likeliest outcome is that they won't get an offer. Trading a place at Sheffield he's happy with for a year with stress and uncertainty sounds frankly bonkers... The friend who can't understand why he's not doing that sounds a bit daft and/or narrow minded to me.

Thanks Errol - yes that makes sense. Yes I think DS intends to "generalise then specialise" on his course. There is also the option to "generalise then continue to generalise" on the same course, but I think he'd choose the former option. I'm sure Sheffield has it covered accreditation-wise, depending on which options you choose in Years 3 and 4, but as you say, it might well be worth us making a call.

Accreditation details for the course are here:
www.sheffield.ac.uk/general-engineering/undergraduate/course-structure

It appears that it is not currently accredited but is in the process of applying for accreditation. That could be one thing to watch if he thinks he wants to go down a line of engineering that involves professional body accreditation.

I am a civil engineer so for us, our courses should be Institution of Civil Engineers (ICE) accredited. You can join as a student member while on a relevant course, then become a graduate member upon graduating. You can then choose your route forward - you may work towards becoming an ‘incorporated engineer’ or a ‘chartered engineer’. To work towards chartership you ideally need a masters degree although there are other routes to chartership. But no matter what, the key thing is that the degree needs to be accredited.

I don’t know exactly how it goes for things like project managers, etc. Many of our PMs are engineers who are choosing to go into that management type of role rather than the number crunching/technical expert route.

@SweetPetrichor
You have explained it very well. I thought this course at Sheffield was accredited by IET and no one else but I could be wrong. As you say, that is not allowing grad membership of ICE, IEE, I MechE and lots of others. It’s therefore, in fact, very narrow and a hack of all trades.

@niceduvet
You HAVE to either be an incorporated engineer or chartered engineer to supervise others or project manage in a professional role. To sign off structural design you have to be Chartered for example. We are not talking about house building sites here where project management is a loose description of a professional role. Grad engineers do this role but they are working towards being chartered and they must complete rigorous CPD and actually design something. You are not a professional engineer without design capabilities or nothing would ever get done! Also, how can you manage others without equivalent or better professional qualifications yourself? You simply won’t be taken seriously by the fully qualified engineers or get the job in the first place.

Generalise then specialise can be a very slow route to being a chartered engineer if the course has limited accreditations or none.

Thanks TizerorFizz and others for the info. It is a relatively new course for Sheffield so I guess that may be why it's still waiting for some additional forms of accreditation. I'll check this out with them.

Just a technicality, OP, but if he does reapply to C, he will, again, only have 2 months to study for the ENGAA, wouldn't he? Not a year? He'd need to apply by mid-Oct and do the ENGAA early November, if I remember... or do you mean take 2 gap years??

Good point, @kitnkaboodle

I just came back to say Thankyou to everyone who contributed to this thread. It has been very informative. Hope your son ends up on the right path for him, OP.

I can't see why it would take that long. He's recently done his A levels so should have the relevant maths and physics secure. He's presumably already done the half dozen or so available past papers last year.

I think the issue is pretty much all of the applicants will have/be predicted 4 A stars won't they? Seems a bit risky to me.

The head of admissions at Cambridge is on WIWIKAU and often jumps in on threads to offer advice, she seems very nice and helpful. Not sure she will be that objective though.

Sheffield is a fantastic university. It’s not an ‘also ran’ to Oxford or Cambridge and shouldn’t be treated as such (some of the comments on here are just weird). Your son will go to a great university, work hard and have fun. He will have great opportunities when he leaves uni and if he’s that bothered about having an Oxbridge degree he can just tack on a Masters at some point.

Are you sure? There is no such thing as a 'head of admissions at Cambridge'. Each college has an admissions tutor and each faculty has a team that looks at admissions.

@ShandaLear
Unfortunately few posters are employers of engineers. They have one DC who has gone to Oxbridge and don’t see the bigger picture because they have little experience or extensive knowledge of engineering. MN is full of Oxbridge and everything else is second best. In Engineering, a MEng from many high calibre universities is respected just as much. Our CEng qualifications are respected worldwide. It’s a no brainer to take Sheffield. There is also constant referral to hard maths. Back in the day (50 years ago) DH got a D in maths A level. However his engineering skills are broader than maths. The best engineers are not necessarily gifted mathematicians. Many are gifted problem solvers. It’s broad set of skills that’s needed to reach the top. With DH, despite his engineering skills, the big money was in knowing how to make money! So knowing how to run a business becomes crucial for many. You need the work to employ anyone!!

I could have written your post @TizerorFizz.
DH, BSc (Sheffield), subsequent degrees from other institutions, has over the years employed many engineers, none of whom achieved their degrees from Oxbridge.

I think this is mainly because they had no Oxbridge graduates applying for jobs, but DH was in charge of the teaching company scheme which was in partnership with Leeds university, so most of their graduates were from there.

DH also didn't achieve stellar gardes at A level, but he achieved a first class degree when they were as rare as hen's teeth, then went on to complete a PhD and an MBA. He is also a problem solver, which is what he does as a consultant.

@RampantIvy
I do think DH has a Cambridge engineer (CEng) but they are as rare as hen’s teeth too. DH has no other degrees but as he was a partner in a consultancy at 28 (and MICE snd MIStructE by then) so there wasn’t time. The consultancy was grown by DH and his partner and is now medium sized. Fellowships of the institutions followed. What they do is problem solve in a cost effective practical way.for their clients. It’s not big glitzy tower blocks but buildings and infrastructure that matter to people in their everyday lives.

I read some research that says being top of your class at university is the best predictor of post-university career success, not attending the top university. So I say, go to Sheffield and be top. Especially if he's happy to be doing that,

Cambridge doesn't like gap years for STEM subjects anyway. There are even more kids born in 2005 than 2004. So no guarantees that would be any different.

@mellicauli
DH got a 2:2. So did nearly everyone back then. No 30% firsts! Not much of a predictor really! It’s also not true.

@DrDetriment I'm pretty sure that's what she introduces herself as but I might be wrong. Seemed nice enough when I asked her for advice on something.