Further Maths as 4th A Level

[Turmerictolly]

Ds is not mad about maths but is starting 6th form doing maths, chemistry, physics and Biology AS. (He is predicted a 9 for his GCSE's). He's aiming for a degree like natural sciences, chemical engineering or physics but we've been advised by friends on the Cambridge natsci degree that almost everyone has further maths a level despite the blurb saying it's not necessary and this is the same for the most competitive universities.

His school have said he can start with the 4 A levels plus AS then drop further maths if it gets too much but then he loses the option of an EPQ which might be valuable too.

Any advice please? He is at a state school.

You’re are at risk of seriously overloading your ds. Four a levels plus an AS and an EPQ is bonkers and unnecessary.

Far too much. He is being badly advised.

DD1 and DD2 are both at uni doing (different) sciences. Both were advised to focus on getting A* at A Level and not do EPQ. It worked out for them both. DD3 doing essay subjects was advised to do EPQ. I'd suggest looking at the university pages. Most that DD1 and DD2 were looking at were not interested in EPQ, but it could be different for your DS.

If he wants to be a Cambridge natsci, I think he would be better off doing further maths as well. I went to Cambridge (a while ago) and did 4 alevels including further maths and a 5th AS.

Someone on my course (not even maths/natsci) did an extra 3rd maths a level in their own time, and not havign fuether maths was unusual.

The course is intetense and fast moving and he would fond it much easier once there if he has further maths.

Lots of schools that offer 4 A levels at Sixth form don't offer EPQ's at all at the school, it's really not necessary.

Sorry for typos!

We went through this dilemma with my DS who wanted to study Chemical Engineering. He even contacted all the admissions departments of the top universities for their views, I think it might have been compulsory for one offer, but optional for others. School had no advice really.

In the end it was just bumping into an old friend of mine at the supermarket that decided it for him. Her middle daughter was already studying Chemical Engineering at Birmingham and without even promoting said he needed to do Further Maths. She hadn't, and it made the degree a lot harder as she was already behind.

So he did the 4 A levels including FM, and is about to start his 4th year at Imperial College studying Chemical Engineering. He's friends with a guy on the course who didn't do FM, and as my friend's DD suggested he struggled in the first year.

However if your DS is not too keen on maths please bear in mind that Physics and Chemical Engineering degrees will have a lot of this content.

Thanks for the responses so far. Just to clarify, school have advised either the 4 A levels plus AS or 3 A levels plus AS and EPQ. EPQ not allowed on top of 4 A levels.

He is an able mathematician but not a genius at maths and I think has lost a bit of mathematical confidence due to being surrounded by extremely able maths boys. He is very likely to achieve all 9's at GCSE in maths and sciences.

Bio teacher here. In this situation our school advises that they do the further maths as opposed to epq. If struggling he can always drop the further maths and pick up an epq but can't do it the other way round as will have missed too much teaching

My son has just finished his second year studying (physical) natural sciences at Cambridge.

He did A-levels in Maths, Physics, Chemistry and Further Maths; he would have liked to take Biology too, but his (state) school couldn't timetable five subjects.

His Cambridge interviews were focused around solving maths problems (his comment afterwards was that there was more calculus than he was expecting).

His offer specified an A in Further Maths and then A A in Physics and Chemistry (in either order). A high grade in Maths was assumed.

He does know people on his course that don't have Further Maths A-level (because their school didn't offer it or because of personal circumstances) - they studied independently over the summer before university and/or worked extra hard to catch up in the first term.

He spent the summer after A-levels teaching himself an extra Pure Further Maths A-level component (that wasn't an option at his school) and was glad he had done this.

The first year was quite maths-heavy, the second year more so.

Mumsnet formatting rules...

His offer specified an A star in Further Maths and then A star and A in Physics and Chemistry (in either order).

My suggestion would be to drop the Biology AS (which will not affect his eligibility for any of the IA Natural Sciences courses, including the Biology ones) and replace it with Further Maths. He can still study Biology independently in his spare time for interest.

I agree with @Ironoaks . Both my DDs are Nat Sci students/graduates. Unless the OP's DS has decided to do BioNatSci, drop Biology in favour of FM. I am lead EPQ teacher at my school and whilst I love the qualification, I think your DS would be better served by doing Maths, FM, Physics and Chemistry full A levels.

If it's any consolation, my older DD who graduated from Cambridge with a first in NatSci, is now working for a PhD there but using her skills in a Biological area. I was concerned that she only had a GCSE in Biology, but she stated it took a day or so of reading to get up to speed on the biological processes she needed. DD's offer in 2017 was 2 A stars and 2 A grades. They didn't specify which subjects then, which is just as well. DD found the Maths component a challenge and dropped it after her 1st year, despite an A star in Maths and A in FM at A level.

I would agree with Malbecfan and Ironoaks to drop the Biology and do FM instead. There is often a 'reality gap' between what Cambridge state as the minimum requirements to apply and the subject profiles / grades of those actually admitted. If he wants to apply for Cambridge NatSci, FM would seem almost essential.

Mmm Maths will be fairly central to a Nat Sci degree maybe this isn’t the right course for your DS if he isn’t keen. My DS studied Maths, FM, Physics and another subject (not Chem) and also did an EPQ but his EPQ was largely completed during Lockdown. Maths and FM go hand in hand and complement each other (well some topics in FM are useful to Maths).
I think the EPQ was beneficial in some ways as it is a taster for further study and can be referenced on Personal statement. But I would say FM is perhaps more useful than an EPQ if you could only chose one or the other. If apply to Cambridge it is highly competitive and also have to sit a test in year 13 (on top of A levels, learning to drive, life etc etc).

Former RG STEM admissions tutor here. Much as I generally favour three ALs plus the EPQ, in this case I probably agree with @Bumbers, @Ironoaks and @Malbecfan (with apologies to any PPs I’ve omitted) that four A levels is the best bet for your DS.

My hesitation concerns the question of whether he has a deep passion for Biology. If he does, why is it not a degree and career interest? In this case I think he should do three ALs to include a full Bio AL, plus an EPQ, then do a relevant degree. But this scenario sounds improbable from his plans.

All of his potential degree areas involve quite a lot of maths. How does he feel about that?

I don’t mean to say that not being a maths genius is a problem! It isn’t, even at highly selective unis,. However I do agree with PPs that the less mathematically confident and/or able students are the ones who most benefit from having FM in their toolkit. Admissions tutors may tell you that there is a Year 1 module covering the necessary maths background. Do not believe them. It goes at the speed of lightning, and/or contains major gaps. Good luck to your DS

PS To be explicit, I think that absent the unlikely scenario where your DS will be doing a full Bio AL, he should not be starting Bio.

Also I see I should have acknowledged @Inthecathouseagain along with the others in my earlier post.

Absolutely take FM.

Maths, especially FM, changes at A level. For some it will be a step too far. Others will find it more interesting and thus find it easier to engage. Maths as part of STEM/economics degrees at very selective Universities is then a further step.

Being with very able maths boys is both an advantage and disadvantage. It means that the class can move at a good pace, but also means that perfectly competent mathematicians lose confidence. DS thought hard about whether he would be able to manage FM and was initially placed in the bottom set. He just scraped over the line for an A* but really took off at University. Looking back his issue at school was confidence not concepts. Once he gained some confidence, his interest and engagement grew.

We also later discovered that there was a lot of tutoring going on. A boarder friend, who my son thought was a maths genius, revealed that during vacations he had essentially been sent to a full time tutorial college. He did get to Cambridge but was not happy there.

I think that places like Imperial and Cambridge would wonder why FM was not taken. Not taking it because you feared you were not good enough would be a red flag. And if he struggles, better to know at school than squeeze into a University course with a high, and hard, maths content.

Ds is not mad about maths that is a worry if he is headed toward NatSci. If he does take fm A level then 50% of his timetable will be maths. In Ds's sixth form they do all of maths A level content in yr12 then fm in year 13 sitting both exams in year 13. Some students do drop fm to concentrate on their other subject grades.

Originally when Ds applied to Cambridge for a different course but maths heavy it did state fm then one year later that had disappeared. However, the vast majority of applicants for any mathsy uni course in the top 10 unis will have fm A level. It isn't a full A level as such more a complimentary one to maths. Ds says more developing what you have already been taught and some new stuff.

It would disadvantage your son not to take fm. EPQs are far less desirable than high grade A levels I would think. Ds did 4 A levels and no EPQ

@Finawelesca, OP -

A while back there was another thread here concerning four ALs vs the EPQ. The OP has a DD in a selective girls’ school. The school surveyed U.K. universities (the implication was all of them, presumably at the level of the Admissions Directorate, though this was not specified) about their preferences and the OP said that the overwhelming preference - IIRC, it may have been unanimous -was for the EPQ.

In general this makes sense to me. Even Oxbridge will frequently make an

Cont’d with apologies for accidental posting

….. offer based on three ALs plus supracurriculars. The EPQ develops useful skills for uni - even in STEM, where many of our students have woeful writing skills - complementary to those developed by exam focused study.

As I said, I agree the exception is FM for some STEM subjects. For Maths and CS I think Maths, FM, Physics with an EPQ is a strong credential.

If he’s not brilliant at maths then further maths is a bad shout. My DS, who got an A* at A level maths started with 4 and dropped Further very early on.

Thank you all, I really appreciate the further information and experiences. I'll discuss it all with Ds later.

I can see the value in taking an EPQ; researching something you might be passionate about and able to discuss at interviews but then Ds wouldn't be allowed to do FM so it's looking like one or the other. It looks like the majority posting are saying FM is almost an essential element of the degree's ds is interested in. I feel it is a bit disingenuous of the universities to say FM is not an absolute requirement when most offer holders have it. Maybe they should put a caveat in saying, if your school offer it, then we'd expect you to take it for this course or you would be disadvantaged by not taking it.

The more I think about it, the more I feel this is a confidence issue rather than an aptitude one. He was given the opportunity to take FSMQ but didn't as he 'only' scored 86% in his mock rather than the 90%+ others scored (lots of whom have been tutored btw) so he decided not to enter.

I feel it is a bit disingenuous of the universities to say FM is not an absolute requirement when most offer holders have it.

They have to say this as not all schools offer Further Maths, so that would be discriminatory.

But yes, at Cambridge or Imperial the vast majority of stem subject students will have 4 A levels including FM. Many also have an additional AS.