Further Maths as 4th A Level

[Turmerictolly]

Ds is not mad about maths but is starting 6th form doing maths, chemistry, physics and Biology AS. (He is predicted a 9 for his GCSE's). He's aiming for a degree like natural sciences, chemical engineering or physics but we've been advised by friends on the Cambridge natsci degree that almost everyone has further maths a level despite the blurb saying it's not necessary and this is the same for the most competitive universities.

His school have said he can start with the 4 A levels plus AS then drop further maths if it gets too much but then he loses the option of an EPQ which might be valuable too.

Any advice please? He is at a state school.

It's not one or the other! Hopefully the graduates can do both.

Some cannot. Not every grad! Obviously some are very good. Others don’t get through selection tests because their basic understanding of possible engineering solutions is missing. All the maths in the world won’t make up for this. If you program the computer based on inaccuracies or misunderstandings it’s garbage unfortunately. We do have outstanding courses at universities but sometimes they don’t work closely enough with employers to ensure grads come up with cost effective solutions and are able to work quickly so employers actually make money. Unfortunately mistakes or misunderstandings cost money. Some employers are less concerned about this than others of course. Maths ability isn’t everything.

That sounds odd. Certainly the degree DD took, though requiring good maths skills, also required practical skills. More than 75% of the assessment was based on work other than formal exams. (Assessment methods are on the Imperial website by subject.) So designing projects, ordering parts from China (and ensuring the University paid the invoice) retrieving mislaid items from the post room, managing group work in different times zones with people from different cultures. As well as building things and programming and adapting code from the internet etc. It seemed very employment oriented, perhaps explaining the very high starting salaries of some of the graduate vacancy information the University send to her.

As Errol suggests, some grads are capable of both.

Same with our experience. Lots of engineering students who love to code, design and build things while doing a rigorous maths heavy engineering degree.

I don't think one excludes the other at all. As don't many companies recruiting from these universities.

I'm actually surprised that some universities (in the UK) do not require a high level of Maths knowledge. In Germany and Switzerland the maths components for Engineering are very demanding.

Engineering PhD here and working as a software developer. Universities are not there to train people directly for their jobs. It's to create a foundation for lifelong learning. It's a long time since I did my degree and I remember it being very mathematical. However, it's much less mathematical compared to DH who has a maths/physics degree. He said they joked about the baby maths us engineers did.

Personal experience is that you do need to love maths to do a degree with a heavy maths component. It's needed in most papers in the degree. I have always found maths (and physics ) the easiest subjects at school. Worst are the essays ones.

I think the OP questions have been answered and that FM is a good thing. Even if it's not needed for admission. It'll set him a good foundation to handle his chosen degree.

Software developing isn’t practical engineering. Of course grads are not the finished article but they should have the basics to build on. Engineering degrees absolutely train grads for specifics engineering roles. They become graduate engineers. Not just grads. PhD in engineering is usually an academic engineer. The route to CEng doesn’t involve a Phd for most. DH is a Fellow of 3 Engineering institutions and a consultant.

The engineering profession is undergoing dramatic changes at the moment. Artificial intelligence and software are taking over many engineering assignments, primarily straightforward design tasks. It’s estimated that AI will take over as much as 25% of the work of engineers.

New engineering initiatives are arising from the growing pools of data supplied by aircraft, cars, buildings, manufacturing systems, chemical plants, etc.

There is an increasing need for engineers with more advanced mathematical capabilities to work with artificial intelligence, robotics, machine learning, data analytics, etc. and who have mastered several engineering disciplines and understand how various systems interact and support each other.

@JocelynBurnell
No doubt that’s true but to be honest that’s not design. It’s data interpretation and research. Engineering is changing for some disciplines but not everyone.

Of course engineers learn from the past. Design evolves. It still takes more than coding or data analysis to actually design something that does the job. Data analysis won’t design a bridge. Or something like HS2. Most people seem to think engineering is making things, cars, aircraft etc, but in fact, it’s all around us. In addition if we are not careful, no one will ever run a company delivering engineering design. Big companies are not the only employers in the uk. Others do the nitty gritty work and don’t have Cambridge or Imperial trained engineers. Sadly buildings are not designed by robots either.

The idea that all engineeing grads should have FM won’t work. We don’t have enough taking the subject. If a young person can, they should. However these young people might also want maths snd physics degrees and a whole load of others. So engineering does have openings for A level maths students. That is perfectly reasonable.

No one is saying that all courses should require FM, or that all potential engineers should be very strong mathematicians.

However if a student is capable of getting a good grade in FM, they should seriously consider taking it. It opens doors and allows for a wider choice of career.

Many subjects are becoming more mathematical/data driven. When DD was studying engineering it surprised me that she often phoned her brother who is studying for an econ PhD for advice, either on maths/data handling or on coding. There is clearly a role for others with a practical bent, but is a DC has an aptitude for maths they will have an advantage when applying for some courses.

The idea that all engineeing grads should have FM won’t work. We don’t have enough taking the subject. If a young person can, they should. However these young people might also want maths snd physics degrees and a whole load of others. So engineering does have openings for A level maths students. That is perfectly reasonable.

I don't see anyone arguing anything different to this.

Design evolves. It still takes more than coding or data analysis to actually design something that does the job

True... but there are types of design which are feasible now because of maths and powerful software built on it which would have been impossible or unwise in the days of the slide rule. Older designs which were common in the past in part because it was possible to do the analysis on paper but which had significant downsides are replaced by newer ones. It's enmeshed - the software developers implementing the mathematical innovations allow others to use the methods. It's all good.
Btw, the above musings were informed in part by recently watching this www.wondrium.com/epic-engineering-failures-and-the-lessons-they-teach ... if you or older youngsters are interested in engineering I can't recommend too highly a Wondrium subscription and all the series by this lecturer, including 'everyday engineering' - Tizer is right that engineering is all around us!

I think it's worth pointing out that the original post did not ask about engineering (apart from chemical engineering, which at that university is accessed via the natural sciences course).

The physical natural sciences course at Cambridge (which is what the OP asked about) is very maths focused. It's challenging even with an A star grade in Further Maths A-level. Anyone who is seriously considering this course should take Further Maths A-level if their school / college offers it.

Correction: there is now a separate course in Chemical Engineering and Biotechnology, but 86% of successful applicants have Further Maths A-level, so my main point still stands.

Yes, the discussion has strayed rather far from the original point - hopefully the OP doesn't mind as her update confirms he's doing FM and managing ok. She also mentioned physics as one of his possible degree choices and again, there's going to be a lot of maths - again, there are degree courses at a variety of entry grades and presumably with content pitched at different levels, and doubtless options which will be more or less suitable according to the mathematical ability of each student.

I'm very grateful for this ongoing discussion , thanks for the input. I think ds has realised that taking FM was the right decision. He's doing well and so far his teachers feel he is capable of gaining 4 a stars if he can keep up the current trajectory. There have been a few drop outs in his class and I suspect a few more by the end of the year.

His school are starting to put pressure on re; what degree but he's still undecided. Chemistry, Chem Eng, Natural Sciences, Engineering and Earth Sciences are in the mix now. He enjoys physics but doesn't want to pursue it as a degree.

I think he's put himself in a good position with this mixture of A levels although he could have done without the extra AS (biology). That will soon be out of the way though and he can concentrate on the other subjects and gaining some possible work experience.

That's a great update @Turmerictolly

The EDT do an 'Insight Into University' course where young people can do taster lectures in different STEM subjects and a small project as well as work experience activities. They get a silver Industrial Cadet award too. It's in the summer after Y12, which is late-ish in terms of making decisions about courses (especially if early entry) but might help to confirm preferences. There is an admin fee (£85 I think).

In terms of free activities, DS also found Isaac Physics (there's also an Isaac Chemistry I think) a fun and valuable use of his time in Y12. He gained so much from it, including awards, a place on a residential summer school, and a lot of problem solving practice which equipped him well for assessment tests and interviews.

Thank you @Ironoaks - those suggestions look great. Can I ask what EDT is please?

This i think - I was going to recommend Headstart, looks like this is it now

www.etrust.org.uk/insight-into-university

Thank you @ErrolTheDragon
That's the one.

Just wanted to return to the thread to say thanks to @Ironoaks and @ErrolTheDragon. The deadline for the EDT applications was at the beginning of January but they let ds put a quick last minute application in and to our surprise, he got a place! I'd never heard of this scheme so grateful to you for the information.

Great, hope he enjoys it and finds it useful.

I'm not sure schools and colleges do enough to make their students aware of this sort of thing.

@Turmerictolly - thank you for coming back to update, glad to hear that he'll have this opportunity and hope he finds it interesting and helpful.

Returning to the thread to say it's likely ds actual predicted grades will be 3 x A star (phys, maths, chem) and A for FM. He has now completed AS Biology and glad to drop it.

He's not sure whether this will be competitive enough for the degrees he is now honing in on - NatSci at Cambridge and Chem Eng at other universities. He thinks the Chem Eng degree at Cambridge will be too competitive. We've been told that, although all engineering degrees have a high maths content, Chem Eng is one of the least heavy in maths - not really sure how true this is as we don't know anyone doing this course.

We're off to some further open days in the next few weeks so will do some more digging.

I've just spoken to my DS about this.

He's just finished a 4 year Chem Eng degree at Imperial. I'm fairly sure he had the same predicted A levels at the same stage as your DS - but he achieved 4 A stars in the end.

He says that every engineering degrees is maths heavy - his Chem Eng certainly was - but the student can tailor it to some extent by the elective modules they take and the research projects they do in later years.