Further Maths as 4th A Level

[Turmerictolly]

Ds is not mad about maths but is starting 6th form doing maths, chemistry, physics and Biology AS. (He is predicted a 9 for his GCSE's). He's aiming for a degree like natural sciences, chemical engineering or physics but we've been advised by friends on the Cambridge natsci degree that almost everyone has further maths a level despite the blurb saying it's not necessary and this is the same for the most competitive universities.

His school have said he can start with the 4 A levels plus AS then drop further maths if it gets too much but then he loses the option of an EPQ which might be valuable too.

Any advice please? He is at a state school.

He was given the opportunity to take FSMQ but didn't as he 'only' scored 86% in his mock

That's very high! I seem to remember the grade boundary for an A was 60ish percent.

OP,

I agree that it is disingenuous and that it is for the reason @pinklavenders stated. Rejected applicants sometimes get the feedback that having declined the option of FM that was available at their school or college was a mark against them.

You and your DS will have an interesting discussion, I’m sure.

Depends on the child and we don't know him. One of mine did 5 A levels (one being further maths) plus General Studies, got As in all of them, no Astars in those days. They also held down a job with contract 20 hrs per week but often did 30 hrs. Would have killed my other kids and they'd never have done it.

My son (state school)
gcses 8/9 s
a levels
chemistry/physics/maths/further maths
after 6 months pulled out of further maths as was so boring. So ended up with three A* and A in his epq. He is at Cambridge uni.

If he does Maths, Physics and Chemistry, very many degrees are open to him. I do not understand why he wants the most competitive - Natural Sciences at Cambridge is, but doesn’t love maths. There’s so many more great options available without the stress.

New course this year including biotech so may appeal? www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/courses/chemical-engineering

Thanks @EwwSprouts. I notice it says that most entrants have FM although it's not a course requirement.

@TizerorFizz - Ds is keeping his options open for university so Nat Sci, Chem, Chem Eng and Physics all in the mix at the moment.

Since I started this post, Ds has been doing quite well and although he finds FM a bit of a challenge, his grades are good and he's managing.the workload. Although he's still not really enthused by maths, he doesn't dread it either which is good.

I agree with others that 3 + FM and no epq is probably the best option. One of my DC is doing a degree with a large maths component and despite being extremely good at maths, would have struggled without FM. Oxford Physics Dept also advises applicants that they will struggle without FM and actually provides extra maths classes for those without FM.

Drop the AS? It's huge amounts of work regardless of GCSE grades. It's also this huge life change of going from school to being more independent at college, meeting new friends, new experiences good and bad.

I work in a college and see the pressure young people are under to achieve academically, be popular, look great, be organised etc etc.

There are plenty of students who manage this but in my role as a social worker I often see the demands it places even on the most high achievers.

Students also have to take an enrichment course at our college to add to their timetable, some choose course related options and this is a drain too - honestly I don't know where they get the time to study, most have jobs 15-20hrs a week too.

@Turmerictolly
Why only chemical engineering? Every other form of engineering requires Maths and Physics. So he’s got a wealth of choices there, with or without FM. Why not Geology? I would look for a broad range of careers and perhaps a vocational application of maths would be of interest.

Studying Further Maths at 'A' level gives him a wealth of options for degree courses and will be more valuable to him than the EPQ. Further Maths is needed for natural Sciences, Physics, Computer science and engineering.

The top universities will be expecting him to have Further Maths to do these courses. The other Russell Group universities do take kids without further Maths but it means the students have to play catch up in their first university year.

Which universities do you categorise as "the top universities" ?

Sorry, when I say 'top' I mean most selective

There are not vast numbers of students with FM in our universities. Plenty really can manage degrees in engineering and sciences without FM!

Never said there were vast numbers with FM but it's easier in the first year of engineering and Physics courses if you have it. At Warwick for instance the admissions tutor said that a good indication of how well a student would do on a Physics course was the grade they achieved in FM or Maths A level as there's so much Maths content.

@littelmemaydnes
Warwick is a renown university destination for FM students! Their maths course m, for example, is just behind Oxbridge in the league tables. Of course they would like fm for mathsy type courses because that’s the type of student they get applying! Its a poor example when you look at the requirements for engineering overall.

If you had quoted Surrey or Herts you would find Maths at B snd C are required respectively. They wouldn’t expect to see many students with FM. However they still turn out very employable grads!

Never said other universities didn't turn out enjoyable graduates.

I'm just saying it's more ideal to have FM and that certain universities will expect it.

Sorry - typo - not 'enjoyable', I meant 'employable' !

Some courses will be more mathematical. They will be looking for students with strong maths aptitude, most easily demonstrated by a strong FM prediction. Other courses will have a lower maths content and so an afford to have lower Maths A level entry requirements.

DD studies bio-medical engineering at Imperial. Scanners, for example, throw out data. The ability to handle maths and coding was important, though so to were practical skills such as soldering.

If you have maths aptitude you should consider FM. It keeps more doors open. There is nothing then to stop you applying for a less quantitative course, like the ones Tizer has suggested. However if you are capable of a strong grade in FM you might find it more rewarding to study alongside students with a similar ability.

It is also worth noting that for many with maths aptitude, FM is more interesting than GCSE maths. Also taking FM helps improve your Maths Alevel grade, as FM takes you beyond the A level syllabus.

we've been advised by friends on the Cambridge natsci degree that almost everyone has further maths a level despite the blurb saying it's not necessary

Universities can't insist on FM as not all schools offer it.

My dc is studying engineering and almost all students seem to have done FM A level. It's still a hard course, so I doubt they'd have managed without Further Maths!

In other words, even WITH Further Maths the first year courses are very challenging.

Unfortunately universities are churning out engineering mathematicians instead of engineers who can solve practical problems. Hence they have gaps in learning when they are employed. They haven’t actuality solved problems in the real world.

Of course engineering is a hard degree so why make life harder without having Further Maths at A level?

If you look at the Cambridge website, most students studying Physical NatSci have Further Maths 'A' level.

It's one of the few university websites which offers transparency regarding admissions.

Some of them do manage to do both, you know!